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Author Topic: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics  (Read 5538 times)

Offline Garanhir

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A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« on: February 24, 2015, 10:49:48 AM »
Plastic cement. Somehow I've gone through life without encountering it in use. Just how smelly is the stuff?
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Offline Paul

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 11:26:18 AM »
Quite smelly..but after an hour or so in an room filled with the vapours...................................?............



...............you just don´t notice ..... ;D o_o
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Online zemjw

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 11:55:06 AM »
Some are worse than others, depends what they have in them. I have a bottle of plasticweld (I think that's the name) that I'm too scared too use because of the warnings on the label o_o

The main one that I do use is Revell Contacta Pro modelling glue, which has quite a pleasant smell and doesn't need a fume cabinet. However, I knocked a bottle of Revell glue over, and it took all the lettering off my cutting mat. I decided not to spend too long thinking about what it was doing to my lungs ;D

If you do get some glue, consider getting one with a needle applicator. It makes things so much easier. Mine has a habit of clogging up, but can be cleared with a bit of fuse wire.

Offline 6milPhil

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 12:35:17 PM »
It's not as smelly as superglue accelorator but smellier than paint.

Plasticweld is the best, it's a liquid rather than a cement and is very fast to dry. I can't recommend it highly enough. I apply it with a brush, a quick stroke on one piece and then the other, press it together and count to - oh it's set already.

I wouldn't use cement if I could help it, I'd say it's smellier than liquid and not half as economical plus it often strings, which liquid doesn't. It's also easier to change you mind as you can go back to a set join, brush it with liquid and it will release - if you're quick.

Offline Miantanomo

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 12:55:44 PM »
I use Testors. My current tube just ran out yesterday and had lasted me 2 years. I love it and it works better than the others I've used.
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Offline le bon roi rene

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2015, 11:11:36 PM »
Testors has really improved their cement since the toothpaste tubes of the stuff I used as a kid. The liquid cement is solid (not Tenex or Ambroid good but good enough).

The Testors plastic cement with the new dispenser with built in blunt needle applicator really does make working with traditional plastic cements a joy compared to the old days.

It also seems to reduce the fumes a tad. Highly recommended.

Cheers,
Fred
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:13:40 PM by le bon roi rene »

Offline Atheling

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 06:03:00 AM »
Quite smelly..but after an hour or so in an room filled with the vapours...................................?............



...............you just don´t notice ..... ;D o_o

That's about it summed up in a nutshell  lol lol lol

Darrell.

Offline eilif

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 02:25:10 PM »
Yep, it smells, but not so bad and it won't burn your nose the way a big sniff of some superglues will.   I also recommend Plastic Weld as being top notch. which is one of the smellier varieties but as long as you put the brush/cap back on when you're not using it you'll be fine. 

I would recommend setting the bottle in a wide bottomed mug with some sand or some other stabilizing mechanism as it's very prone to tipping.  I've also lost much of the numbers and gridding on my cutting mat due to glue spills.

Offline Abbner Home

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 05:30:52 PM »
Be warned there is a small minority for whom the smell is literally unbearable as it triggers in them blinding headaches of the sort that include vomiting. I can manage short sessions outdoors, with a fan, and wearing a respirator w the proper filters.  You'll know quickly if you're so afflicted and I sincerely pray you are not.

Offline Miantanomo

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 12:29:49 PM »
Be warned there is a small minority for whom the smell is literally unbearable as it triggers in them blinding headaches of the sort that include vomiting. I can manage short sessions outdoors, with a fan, and wearing a respirator w the proper filters.  You'll know quickly if you're so afflicted and I sincerely pray you are not.

Oh wow. Abbner, that sounds awful. I didn't realize that. Are all brands like that for you? Or just some in particular?

Offline Abbner Home

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 07:44:40 PM »
It's all brands. But I get migraines and almost any smell; gas/petrol, mineral spirits, nail polish (my poor wife can't use it in the house), spray paint  incense, smelly candles, cleaners etc. trigger a headache of moderate or worse severity.  It's a condition I've had for about 30yrs now and I just deal. It does require me to approach a lot of painting tasks from a different angle.

For example I use superglue on plastic models a lot more than most people. I brush prime if possible but if not I have a whole system and a suit and mask.

If I had any sense I'd find a new hobby.  :D

Anyway, I do appreciate the sympathy/concern but I'll stop jacking this thread with my unfortunate medical condition now :)





Offline Garanhir

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 08:51:18 PM »
Thanks everyone, for all your comments and advice. I've decided to take the plunge and picked up a box of plastics, together with a bottle of Revell Contact Pro. The mild odour (milder than superglue vapours, it seems) and needle applicator should prevent me from gassing anyone.

And thanks to the good Captain for moving the thread to the right place.

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 11:32:28 PM »
Well it was a bit late, but it's not a specifically medieval question, and you might get a few more useful suggestions here in one of the 'general' areas  :)

Offline Connectamabob

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 01:35:44 AM »
There are a few types of plastic cement, according to the active ingredient:

Methyl ethyl ketone (MEK):
Testors (both liquid red tube)
Plastruct PlasticWeld (a mix of MEK and dichloromethane, see below)

Pros: slower acting than dichloromethane, so gives better repositioning time
Cons: Slower setting and cure time means the joint takes longer to set to handling or full strength, doesn't penetrate plastic as aggressively, so bonds can sometimes be superficial, high toxicity, works on a narrower range of plastics.

Special notes: The most toxic of the three in terms of chemistry. Produces strong smelling fumes. Also sold as a paint stripper/degreaser in some hardware stores, which will be cheaper by volume than the wee hobby repackaged bottles. It's literally the exact same stuff, so if you favor MEK liquid cement, ignore the hobby brands and buy the hardware store stuff instead.

Dichloromethane, AKA methylene chloride (DCM)
Tenax
Ambroid ProWeld
Weld-On 4
PlasticWeld
Possibly Mr. Cement C, though no MSDS has been released as yet, and I've never handled the stuff myself

Pros: extremely fast acting and fast setting, aggressive penetration so bonds are almost always very solid.
Cons: highly volatile (i.e. evaporates lightning fast), aggressive solvent action can easily marr or damage parts if applied liberally, and you can/will lose a notable percentage of a bottle just to evaporation in the course of a bottle's lifetime.

Special notes: chemically less toxic than MEK, but high volatility means it produces a much larger volume of fumes in a shorter time frame, so in large amounts can actually be more dangerous (though we're talking much larger amounts than hobby glue use). Like MEK, is sold as a stripper/degrease in some hardware stores, though sales for stripping purposes specifically are banned in some areas (such as the EU) do to contractors killing themselves by hotboxing themselves with the fumes (doing mind bogglingly stupid things like trying to strip enamel bathtubs in-situ :? )

Limonene
Anything labeled "non toxic"
Testors green tube, Testors non-toxic liquid

Pros: Non-toxic and therefore best for small children, low aggressiveness makes it ideal for tiny/thin parts that would be damaged by MEK or DCM.
Cons: slow acting, poor penetration, weak bond strength.

Butyl acetate
Tamiya cements (actually a mix of butyl acetate and acetone)

Can't really say much about this, as to my knowledge only Tamiya uses it, and I've never had the opportunity to try it myself, so I don't know how it handles. From reading about it, it seems to fall towards the "non toxic" end of things (safe, though not completely non toxic like limonene), although Tamiya cement should not be considered non toxic because it includes acetone, which is toxic.

Personal opinions:

After using trying/using most of these over the last 20 years or so, I'm solidly a big DCM fan. The stuff just plain always works, and always works fast, and always produces a good bond. The aggressiveness actually can be a tool, as you can selectively overload a joint and squish it to fill/eliminate gaps. For normal applications, in which you apply it sparingly via capillary action, the aggressiveness doesn't make it dangerous, it just makes the bond more secure.

Pro-weld is IMO slightly better than Tenax due to some additives, but is impossible to get anymore. Tenax is going that way too, and to be honest, is just straight DCM with no additives, so you might as well just get a larger bottle of pure DCM instead of hunting for Tenax: it'll be cheaper and easier to source. I recently got some Weld-On 4, which is the workhorse for professional plastics fabricators, and discovered it's their favorite for a reason. It's got some additives that make it even more aggressive and cure even faster than straight DCM, but without raising its volatility. Takes a light touch to use, but it produces VERY solid bonds VERY fast.

MEK IMO is very "meh". It was my go-to before I discovered Tenax and Pro-Weld, but I've now been spoiled by DCM's superior adhesion, turnaround time, and range of applicable plastics that I'll never go back to the stuff. It's crap now in my eyes.

Limonene I never use. I'd recommend it to people with inquisitive small children, and maybe for extra delicate parts like tiny antennas. I've gotten good enough at applying DCM with a spotter brush that I don't really need that functionality though.

Haven't tried the Tamiya stuff, so can't comment on Butyl acetate.

Some old geezer like to use lacquer thinner or acetone as liquid cement. They'd definitely work, but probably only somewhere between limonene and MEK in terms of aggressiveness and bond strength, I'd guess. In any case, they'd be more toxic, on the level of MEK or worse. Probably only worth it if you're the sort who gets more satisfaction out of feeling clever/resourceful than from the quality of your work.

Plastruct PlasticWeld is rubbish IMO. It has some dissolved monomer/polymer in it that creates a slick of weakened plastic inside the join, making the join less secure. It also means that excess will marr surfaces worse than pure solvents, as it leaves a blob of it's own plastic deposited on the surface instead of just leaving a minor matt spot. I've been told the adhesion weirdness is deliberate, as Plastuct's stuff was originally formulated for architectural modelling, where models would be broken down and materials reused after a project. Anyone who's worked with Plastruct brand plastic stock knows it doesn't take glue/paint right either, so this explanation seems consistent.

Similarly I've found that Testors red tube cement doesn't produce bonds as strong as pure solvent due to the large amount of dissolved plastic that makes it thick. That dissolved plastic is actually pretty brittle by itself when it dries, so bonds don't actually benefit from it, only positionability. If you need a that goopyness or working time, you can just overload one or both surfaces with liquid solvent before pressing them together (instead of capillary wicking with the parts already touching), and that'll get you the same effect, but with better bond strength and a shorter time between setting and curing. This is one of the things Weld-On 4 is REALLY good at, which is why I've come to really like it in the short time I've been using it. Weld-On 4 is very versatile, acting like Tenax with capillary bonds, and Testors red tube with overloaded bonds, but with better adhesion and turnaround time than either. An overloaded Tenax bond sets in 5 minutes or so and has to sit overnight to reach full strength, Testors red tube sets in hours, and has to be left overnight to reach full strength. Overloaded Weld-On 4 sets in a minute, and reaches full strength in less than half an hour. Enough time for careful positioning, but not so much it puts the project on hold.

There's also Mr. Color's Mr. Cement line, another Japanese brand which is relatively new in the west. Haven't tried it myself, and the company reportedly refuses to make their MSDS public. Heard good things, but refusal to publish an MSDS is a massive red flag IMO.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:44:39 PM by Connectamabob »
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Offline Paul

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Re: A Ridiculously Basic Question About Plastics
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 07:48:42 AM »
Oh wow. Abbner, that sounds awful. I didn't realize that. Are all brands like that for you? Or just some in particular?
He´s right....and they can cause Agression.
http://www.talktofrank.com/drug/glues-gases-and-aerosols
Happened to me once. Spent Ages glueing a kit together, in a closed room, in sommer (the warmth helped spread the fumes) and I "lost it" . Started shouting at all and sundry for no reason whatsoever. I felt like I wasn´t "there", a bit like being  in a bad dream. Got a cold sweat and the shakes. Took hours out in the fresh air to clear my head  and I got a really bad headache.
That was using one of the plastic glues that Comes in a square glass bottle. Now I use the revell one with the thin metal tube so the surface area of exposed glue is reduced and only in a room with lots of air and only for short periods followed by a break outside.
 

 

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