Heresy Miniatures - curse of the dragon

[Dim_Reaper]

Necromunda was one of those awesome games that GW just let die. I had the big hardcover rule book edition, and throughly enjoyed playing it. It was the best of everything GW at the time.

Whatever did happen to GW? Ugh.

The talent left. Around about the time that GW bought the rights to LOTR. IMO.

It's been a slow deterioration since then.

Models are nice. Their writing, in many ways offends me. I still play, shows how stupid I am.

[Rob_bresnen]

You should exercise caution about GW bashing. There is already a thread on this forum for that.

[Momotaro]

Your comment implies thar LotR was somehow the "last straw" for GW.  It wasn't - it was a commercial and creative success that brought in the money for the kit that allowed GW to move more heavily into modern CAD design and plastic tooling.

Who left at the time of LotR?  Andy Chambers, Rick Priestltley, Alessio Cavatore and Gav Thorpe all ledt afterwards as GW really started its current "paranoid" phase.

[Dolmot]

Who left at the time of LotR?

Andy Foster?

(Well, GW in 2000 and Foundry in 2001.)

[Dim_Reaper]

Your comment implies thar LotR was somehow the "last straw" for GW.  It wasn't - it was a commercial and creative success that brought in the money for the kit that allowed GW to move more heavily into modern CAD design and plastic tooling.

I implied nothing of the sort. But I saw it as the time when most of the talent, and management who still gave a damn about what the company stood for, started leaving (hence "around about"). I mean why not, a lucrative licence coinciding with some of the most successful films of all time, it's the best possible time to cash in, but it was bad news for the fanbase. As to LOTR, coinciding with the films as it did, it couldn't not be a commercial success, and that's why a lot of upper management and hobbyists that held shares sold them off for a whopping profit. Sure, it brought forth an age of improved miniatures, but the cost of that was handing over the control of those miniatures to a pretty uncaring corporate entity. The kind of entity that allowed attitudes to quality control, especially regarding anything not easily fixed with computers, like say, rules, fluff and pushing the boat out with design to really wane.

So LOTR was a commercial success you say. Yet it never really threw off the shackles of being a "kid's game". I always felt it was worth more consideration than that, but it was a pretty flawed game, and relied on the film aesthetic, which it failed to do anything interesting with, and waned before the films were even done. The Hobbit expansion was a disaster as well.

LOTR also gave us Mat Ward. Nuff said.

I still like the miniatures they make, but frankly, the days of them making actual wargames worthy of note are long behind them. As this is reaching a point of consensus even on GW Fan Forums, there's no point going into it here. After all, they are only a miniatures company.

[Silent Invader]

Do you realise that by continuing to pollute this Heresy thread with GW discussion, you could get it locked?

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=57122.0

[Gibby]

As a pointless side note, I would love to write the rules for that. It's my big ambition to top Necromunda with an equivalent system. I probably should have put 'big' in capitals, and increased the font size a few feet.

It's a real shame you've given up on Necromunda. It's a great system. It isn't perfect, and has massive flaws, but it can be a faff to play, especially if you want the official models.

It is doable without though. I've just helped my friend get the makings of a Spyrer Gang from Scotia Grendel. So if you want some thoughts on miniature ranges to loot from, pop me a PM. Necromunda is one of my favourite all-time games, and I always play it for at least a week every year. So I'm always happy to discuss the subject with anyone.

Thing is, Frostgrave has not toppled Mordheim as a Mordheim type game, in my opinion. It seems to have grabbed people due to Mordheim nostalgia but I think they're both very different games, and each do their own thing well. In Mordheim, more than one character in your warband matters (and even the minions can end up becoming characters). In Frostgrave, everyone but the wizard is basically a pawn.

As for Heresy, he does some really great stuff. I think it's a shame how bad his luck has been. Many people would've walked away by now. I agree that his ranges need some consolidation. He really ought to have expanded the Goblins with some melee troops as they are fantastic little guys. The Sci Fi gang could do with some opponents, etc. Too many one off Not-Dr Who figures and not a lot else didn't exactly draw me in during the Dragon saga. That said, in light of this, I've put an order in for a few gangers to use with Judge Dredd.

[Dim_Reaper]

Do you realise that by continuing to pollute this Heresy thread with GW discussion, you could get it locked?

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=57122.0

Nope, totally new. Didn't know this was a thing. Perhaps it should be made clear in the main rules? Or linked to it?

[Silent Invader]

Nope, totally new. Didn't know this was a thing. Perhaps it should be made clear in the main rules? Or linked to it?

Welcome  . I'm sure the mods will pick up on your questions idc   

[grant]

Do you realise that by continuing to pollute this Heresy thread with GW discussion, you could get it locked?

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=57122.0

Indeed didn't mean to steer it off.

Back to Heresy and dragons and stuff.

[Captain Blood]

Admittedly it's not specified in the main forum rules. But yes, there's one thread specially set aside so that all comment on all things GW related can be kept coralled in one place without all that unhappiness infecting the rest of the forum. So if anyone's ever tempted to start venting about GW, that's the place to go and do it  

It's right there above this thread at the top of the general wargames discussion board...

[Rhoderic]

Thing is, Frostgrave has not toppled Mordheim as a Mordheim type game, in my opinion. It seems to have grabbed people due to Mordheim nostalgia but I think they're both very different games, and each do their own thing well. In Mordheim, more than one character in your warband matters (and even the minions can end up becoming characters). In Frostgrave, everyone but the wizard is basically a pawn.

I didn't say that Frostgrave has toppled Mordheim, I said that there ought to be a game that is to Necromunda what Frostgrave is to Mordheim. That is to say, a game in a similar vein, alive and supported (as opposed to dead, which is what Necromunda and Mordheim are on the industry side), keeping the fire burning, and preferably not so heavily reliant on proprietary factions for which it's difficult to find satisfying alternative miniatures from third-party manufacturers. It doesn't have to be a matter of "toppling", just of keeping the fire burning for those of us who aren't cutthroat or wealthy enough to wade into the ever-hardening OOP collectors' market. I hate the thought of OOP collecting, especially of GW figures that I have to compete for with a whole lot of other people who are very keen on snapping them up before I can get to them. It gives me anxiety. I'd be better off abandoning a hobby that gives me anxiety.

All of which is to say: I want there to be more sci-fi gangs on the market, and although I would not mind if said gangs were Necromunda "rip-offs", I absolutely do not need them to be. The point is that this shouldn't be a GW-centric subject. We should be moving away from the notion that "sci-fi gangs = Necromunda = GW". Like how Frostgrave is moving us away from the notion that "fantasy treasure-hunter warbands = Mordheim = GW". Not toppling what's behind us, just moving forward to what's ahead of us. GW need not be part of the equation.

The following is only a humorous observation among friends and absolutely not intended as a dig at anyone: It's kind of funny that when I say "I wish there were more sci-fi gangs on the market", the response is "Yeah, GW sucks!"

EDIT: Re-reading what I've just written, the first paragraph of this post comes across as if I'm snapping at Gibby. That's not the tone I was going for. Sorry!

[Gibby]

Didn't take it that way!

I agree with you, and sorry for implying that you'd said Frostgrave "toppled" Mordheim with what I wrote. A living and supported sci-fi skirmish game in the Necromunda traditions (in terms of size and scope) would be VERY welcome, and in fairness I think the livingness and supportednessness of Frostgrave is what's got people looking at it as a new Mordheim more than mechanics/setting/gameplay.

[Captain Blood]

This seems to be straying well off topic now 

Maybe start a new topic if you want to discuss Frostgrave vs erstwhile game systems.

This thread was an appeal for support for Heresy. Please try to keep it on track.

[Rhoderic]

Sorry. I think the line of discussion was something like this:

1. While everyone here does want to support Andy and Dan, some people feel a tad thwarted in that endeavour by the fact that certain ranges (goblins, gangers, and possibly sci-fi troopers) could do with filling out with extra weapon options / troop types or complementing with adversaries to make them more "buyable".

2. On the subject of the gangers, Andy has previously stated elsewhere that IP issues may discourage him making a second gang, implying that if there was such a gang, it would be another "Notromunda" one.

3. I'm of the opinion (possibly a minority opinion, but that's fine) that it's time to move away from the Necromunda paradigm. A second Heresy gang could be something completely different.

But anyway, as I also said earlier, where Andy's "resource allocation" issues are concerned I think he's putting his sculpting efforts into things that do make sense right now. Fantasy monsters and dungeon denizens don't need much consolidating to be buyable, especially (hopefully) now that dungeon crawls and fantasy skirmishes with lots of random monster encounters seem to be on the upswing thanks to games like Otherworld and Frostgrave. Also, there always seems to be a market for plastic human sci-fi troopers, and enemies for the same are easy to source from elsewhere.