Battle of Adwa/Adowa/Adua "what if" change #1

[Conquistador]

Thinking about running a "what if" scenario based on the above.

There are several possible things that could change in a what if scenario, such as the Italians actually not getting lost during the night movement, being in mutually supporting positions instead of scattered, having  more experienced troops (with better morale) than the recently drafted and lower morale troops they had, having a decent amount of mules with better tack than historically.  There were other factors that could have been different but then changing these [less political pressure/meddling from Rome, more patience from the Italians - who knew the Ethiopians had drained the resources of the locals [Emperor Menlik was on the cusp of ordering a withdrawal,] would mean no battle so those will be left untouched.

My first thought would be a hardware factor:

Supposedly the newer Carcano Model 91 rifles were not issued because the Italian commander Baratieri was was under constraints to use up the ammunition for the older rifle (designation unknown to me) first. 

So, was the new rifle enough of an improvement that it's issue would have make a significant impact on the battle?

[italwars]

Thinking about running a "what if" scenario based on the above.

There are several possible things that could change in a what if scenario, such as the Italians actually not getting lost during the night movement, being in mutually supporting positions instead of scattered, having  more experienced troops (with better morale) than the recently drafted and lower morale troops they had, having a decent amount of mules with better tack than historically.  There were other factors that could have been different but then changing these [less political pressure/meddling from Rome, more patience from the Italians - who knew the Ethiopians had drained the resources of the locals [Emperor Menlik was on the cusp of ordering a withdrawal,] would mean no battle so those will be left untouched.

My first thought would be a hardware factor:

Supposedly the newer Carcano Model 91 rifles were not issued because the Italian commander Baratieri was was under constraints to use up the ammunition for the older rifle (designation unknown to me) first.  

So, was the new rifle enough of an improvement that it's issue would have make a significant impact on the battle?

Conquistador..i've just answered you in another forum...but i'm happy that you plan to game this battle/period which is among my favourites bot as wargame and figures that i own..
in a few words ..i'm sorry to say that the technological one ..was'nt certainly the factor that lead to the defeat...the Italians lost..simply because they were (and have been since .. with a few notable exceptions)  from a military/political point of view,a bunch of total flakes....from ordinary soldier up to their (our  ) Ministry of War/Defense...

[Captain Blood]

Conquistador, do you really need three separate threads to discuss aspects of wargaming the same battle? I've locked the other ones. Please could you concentrate your discussions of the topic in the one thread? Thank you.

[Atheling]

With regards to Principles of War as suggested on the other thread, Nick at North Star is selling them off in his sale, but I'd be quick, they are now £5. but they were £2. at the start of the sale- or at least that's how much I bought mine for a while back.

http://northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=632

Cheers,
Darrel.

[Conquistador]

Captain Blood,

Yes, I did and still do.  

I felt they were different enough subjects to merit separate discussions.  

You obviously thought otherwise and locked two threads.  Moderator privilege.  I (and just IMO) think you actions were overkill but I do not think it was anything but your judgment as moderator.  Your responsibility and your call.

I would like you to consider conferring with the other website moderators and owner to determine if the three threads (rules, miniatures, scenario changes from historical reality) are not unique enough to deserve separate discussion.  It would save me re-posting my questions and responses locked currently into this thread.

 I have never felt a need for a "rules FAQ" here but rather that guidelines  (other than certain symbols being posted on German website are not acceptable,)  discussion of decisions, and common sense were sufficient.  In that spirit I would like you to re-evaluate your decision please.

[Captain Blood]

Glenn, I will certainly check with the rest of the moderators and the forum owner

[italian]

Conquistador, some reply to your questions:

1) miniature, you could try irregular miniatures (small range of italian ed ethiopian) please note that the italian fought with the dervishes in the same years (hadendowa/beni amer and baqquara are reported at the battle of Adua).


 2) hardware factor; gardner MG were sent in the colony but not bring to Adua because the crews were not trained.
  So a what if could be the use in the fight.
 The greatest problem was the italian use of incorrect maps this behave problems of incorrect placement of Units so a what if could be a correct map for the italians players.

[Conquistador]

Glenn, I will certainly check with the rest of the moderators and the forum owner

Thank you.   

I see your point about the three threads but I try not to mix too many factors in the same thread because... well, because I can be OCD about things like that?  No, I don't separate beans and corn in succotash but I tend to keep the miniatures/rules/scenario questions separate in my head for some reason.  I will try and consciously adjust my posting style to more fully integrate with forum expectations and practices in the future.

Already I see an helpful LAF member has mentioned a good point about maps/unit placement that might be most useful if/when I get the opportunity to run  game. 

[Conquistador]

Conquistador, some reply to your questions:

1) miniature, you could try irregular miniatures (small range of italian ed ethiopian) please note that the italian fought with the dervishes in the same years (hadendowa/beni amer and baqquara are reported at the battle of Adua).


 2) hardware factor; gardner MG were sent in the colony but not bring to Adua because the crews were not trained.
  So a what if could be the use in the fight.
 The greatest problem was the italian use of incorrect maps this behave problems of incorrect placement of Units so a what if could be a correct map for the italians players.

Thank you for your helpful post.

As a cartographer who has seen the effect of using map data from a Tokyo data source in a system expecting WGS-84 (an entire SAC wing failed 'eval' by 600 meters) I fully understand the problems with incorrect map sources.  Ditto the fiasco in Grenada where nobody clarified which map grid was overlaid on the tourist map led to horrific blue on blue results.

[Conquistador]

italian,

Thank for your helpful post.  

Like all technology, I am sure the Gardner gun might have significantly mitigated the odds (at least until it jammed.)  Technology is a great multiplier when/while it works...

Now I still need to buy and paint/have painted the miniatures.  Hopefully my amigo Blake "the painter and war gamer who is hated by his dice" will have his painting table deployed at his new/old digs by then...  Wait, maybe I can talk Blake into running the native army...

[Conquistador]

With regards to Principles of War as suggested on the other thread, Nick at North Star is selling them off in his sale, but I'd be quick, they are now £5. but they were £2. at the start of the sale- or at least that's how much I bought mine for a while back.

http://northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=632

Cheers,
Darrel.

Looks like I missed the sale but even 10 GBP is not bad price for stand alone rules (if you need a supplement that obviously raises the price) but postage for a single hard copy rule set would not be excessive, right?

Thanks to you and John Hollyoak on the other thread for pointing this set out to me.

And thanks to both of you pointing out miniatures sources.

[Atheling]

Looks like I missed the sale but even 10 GBP is not bad price for stand alone rules (if you need a supplement that obviously raises the price) but postage for a single hard copy rule set would not be excessive, right?

Thanks to you and John Hollyoak on the other thread for pointing this set out to me.

And thanks to both of you pointing out miniatures sources.

I got it wrong, it's still £2. !!! 

Darrell.