Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Hobgoblin]

I was always interested in what Tolkien described as the older Orc tribes in the North of Middle-Earth. When I thought Orcs might be immortal, the idea stuck in my head of these ancient tribes might be ones who still remembered the First Age, Goblin Elronds if you like. 'Course it's not the case, but what about an idea that Azog and Bolg, and maybe the Great Goblin, are Maiars, who've lingered under the Misty Mountains for eternity in Orc form, leading these independant lesser tribes. The Balrog managed it!

There is that curious thing about the great orc-chieftain in Moria:

"But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head."[Emphasis mine]

Is that flash just metal on metal? Or is it some effect of Anduril? Or is there something unusual or supernatural about that particular orc?

On the tribes: the impression I get from the various notes about Sauron reinforcing the mountain tribes with his "grim servants", both at the end of the Second Age and the beginning of the Third, is that Orcs, when left on their own, will tend to dwindle in stature over the generations. I seem to recall that there are various references in various of Tolkien's writings to Orcs having been stronger and more terrible - "fell" - in the past. But of course, there could always be some of those greater, more "fell" remnants of past ages among them. The Great Goblin's "celebrity status" is certainly notable in The Hobbit - look at the reaction to his death, both from Orcs and from the likes of Beorn.

As an aside, it's a little unsettling that Beorn clearly tortured his captive goblin for information before killing him!

[Sunjester]

Nick, I'm seeng a 'Frostgrave' plastic box of True-to-Tolkien orcs in your future... 

Bugger! If that happens I can see my " 400+ orcs are enough, I'm never going to buy another I'll just make do with what I've got and paint up the lead pile" promise go straight down the toilet!

[nicknorthstar]

As an aside, it's a little unsettling that Beorn clearly tortured his captive goblin for information before killing him!

I'd forgot that. It is interesting because in one of Tolkiens later notes he talks about how it was impossible for the good guys to reduce themselves to Orcs, meaning that no Elf would ever torture a captured Orc. He goes on to say it was never an issue because no Orc ever surrendered to Elves in the First Age (or ever?), and part of that was because Morgoth convinced the Orcs that Elves were worse than them, and would torture and eat any Orc they caught. It was all a bit East Front WW2 out there. In Unfinished Tales, Turin gets angry with the outlaws he runs with for acting 'Orc-Like' with the Woodsmen they rob from. At first read I thought he meant 'acting cruelly', but actually his outburst ran much deeper into Middle-Earth lore than I realised.

[Steam Flunky]

I dont think there is any info about how long Orcs live as so few are named more than once in the histories. The only exception i can think of is Bolg, son of Azog. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in T.A. 2799 and Bolg became chief which means he was at least old enough to be strong, dangerous and probably experienced enough to pull this off. If we accept he was at least 20 years old then Bolg, when he died attacking Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in T.A. 2941 must have been at least 160 years old.

[Hobgoblin]

I dont think there is any info about how long Orcs live as so few are named more than once in the histories. The only exception i can think of is Bolg, son of Azog. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in T.A. 2799 and Bolg became chief which means he was at least old enough to be strong, dangerous and probably experienced enough to pull this off. If we accept he was at least 20 years old then Bolg, when he died attacking Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in T.A. 2941 must have been at least 160 years old

A though occurs to me: does Tolkien ever specify that Bolg succeeded Azog directly? There could have been a succession of sons, especially if the Orcs didn't practise primogeniture. Perhaps a string of brothers succeeded each other - as in, say, the Vandal kingdom in Africa. Not that that "helps" much with the age question - Bolg would still be at least 140!

[puster]

the only reference in all of his books that doesn't tie up is some Queen who kept cats.

Beruthiel, who was later outfloated by her husband? What did not tie up there? Just curious.

[nicknorthstar]

I'm wrong. I've just done a Wiki on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Ber%C3%BAthiel

I think I was more influenced by Tom Shippeys words than my own reading.
Tolkien spent years creating his world, and it shows, in what he reveals and also what he merely hints at. For instance, there are the famous ‘cats of Queen Beruthiel’, the subject of an off-hand comment by Aragorn—we never find out anything more about the cats or their mistress, but just the mention of them suggests that there is a world outside the story.

But apparently it is in Unfinished Tales. Which I read and never registered.

Orcs are definitely not Green.

[Blackwolf]

Back to the miniatures; does anyone remember the Orcs/Goblins from Ral Partha's 1979 catalogue,called Goblins of the North,South et cetera.Very good,though not very animated,they certainly had the look,right down to Saruman's rune; I have one or two,should have bought more,I was only 13 at the time so Minifigs made up the bulk of my LOTR armies.
     

[Hobgoblin]

Back to the miniatures; does anyone remember the Orcs/Goblins from Ral Partha's 1979 catalogue,called Goblins of the North,South et cetera.Very good,though not very animated,they certainly had the look,right down to Saruman's rune; I have one or two,should have bought more,I was only 13 at the time so Minifigs made up the bulk of my LOTR armies.

I don't remember them in the shops; they must have been superseded by the type in the attached photos by the mid-80s: those are 1979 castings too, originally, I think. But I have seen them around; I may even have one or two in the lead pile; if so, I've never paid them much attention but I'll see if I can dig them out.

I hadn't realised that they were so Tolkien-esque. They're shown here. As you say, they're very clearly based on Tolkien: eyes or hands on the shields, bows on the backs, "squat and broad" - and the S-runes on the helmets of the "giant goblins" (the name reinforces my notion that Tom Meier's later giant goblins - see below - were meant to be uruks, though of Mordor).

[Cubs]

That archer is still sold by Ral Partha as part of their Orcs range.

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/ral-partha-fantasy-c-37/fantasy-armies-c-37_39/orcs-c-37_39_96/

[Hobgoblin]

That archer is still sold by Ral Partha as part of their Orcs range.

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/ral-partha-fantasy-c-37/fantasy-armies-c-37_39/orcs-c-37_39_96/

Yes, I think these guys must hold a record for years in continuous production. They were old when I started gaming as a kid, and they're still going now.

[Sunjester]

I had some fantastic little Tolkien-esque goblins back in the 70s, about 1977, I think. Sadly long gone, I'm not sure what happened to them. I remember them fondly, they were my first fantasy units after Minifigs ME range. I got them from Games Workshop in Hammersmith, back when GW was about the best source on the UK for fantasy/RPG stuff (and White Dwarf was an interesting RPG magazine). I'm not sure who made them, but they were very squat, armoured in mail with spiked helmets. There were 3 poses, one with scimitar and shield, one with axe and shield and one firing a bow - the other two figures had bows slung over their backs. The shields had basic Lidless Eye blazoning.

[Hobgoblin]

I had some fantastic little Tolkien-esque goblins back in the 70s, about 1977, I think. Sadly long gone, I'm not sure what happened to them. I remember them fondly, they were my first fantasy units after Minifigs ME range. I got them from Games Workshop in Hammersmith, back when GW was about the best source on the UK for fantasy/RPG stuff (and White Dwarf was an interesting RPG magazine). I'm not sure who made them, but they were very squat, armoured in mail with spiked helmets. There were 3 poses, one with scimitar and shield, one with axe and shield and one firing a bow - the other two figures had bows slung over their backs. The shields had basic Lidless Eye blazoning.

They sound very much like the fellows in that link I posted above. "Goblins of the Night". They look great - I'm increasingly drawn to really old, somewhat crude miniatures - more room for impressionistic (and very quick!) paintjobs.

[Blackwolf]

Thanks for the link Hobgoblin,yep that's them.And I would pay good money for a collection
As an aside; Painted a Chronicle Orc...Awful! Them an Asgard,so good

[Cyrus the Great]

I think the orc hatred of sunlight is physical more than psychological. In the ten pages I don't think anyone has considered these lines from TTT

'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the fighting Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair wheather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?'