Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Sunjester]

They sound very much like the fellows in that link I posted above. "Goblins of the Night". They look great - I'm increasingly drawn to really old, somewhat crude miniatures - more room for impressionistic (and very quick!) paintjobs.

No it's definitely not the ones in your pictures, these were squatter rather than hunched. I wish I still had them.

[Hobgoblin]

No it's definitely not the ones in your pictures, these were squatter rather than hunched. I wish I still had them.

The link not the picture: E621 to E623?

[Sunjester]

That's them!! Goblins of the Night. Now I know what to look out for.

Thanks.

[Daniel36]

What a wonderful discussion, and I found it right on time too! I have never liked the Warhammer description of Orcs and Goblins (and especially how they look!) and always liked the more serious representations (of which there are very little).

So, very interesting discussion!

However, for my "world", Goblins and Orcs will stay different creatures, albeit very different from their silly counterparts, especially the Goblins.

[Arthadan]

I think we should make a list of Tolkien-accurate Orc manufacturers/ranges!

You lot seems to prefer your Orcs oldschool style (Asgard, Grenadier...), but most of them don't hold so well compared with nowadays standar. In a more "updated" style I'd add:

- GW Moria goblins and uruks scouts (the ones with light armour and bows).
- Redbox goblins
- Thunderbolt Mountain goblins
- Mithril Orcs (these are between oldschool and actual style IMO)

Two questions wich have costed me countless sleepless night:
- What color are Orc eyes? Red? Human-like? Simian-like? Whatever you want because Tolkien never described them?
- And Orc blood, is red or black?

[sukhe_bator]

I'm with Daniel36,
For me 'goblins' will always be the weedier orcs, while Orcs are the ones you need to take seriously at your peril (and Uruk-Hai even more so). It is a convenient shorthand to differentiate them in much the same way that all the different Indian sword types are actually just the term 'sword' in different languages and dialects... talwar, tegha, shamshir, sosun pattah, nimcha, pata, etc.
Arthadan,
I always thought Orc blood was on the black side and seem to recall a reference in Tolkien somewhere. I'd hate to find out it is just another piece of artificially created 'mythos'.
As for eyes - I reckon they'd vary.

[Hobgoblin]

I think we should make a list of Tolkien-accurate Orc manufacturers/ranges!

You lot seems to prefer your Orcs oldschool style (Asgard, Grenadier...), but most of them don't hold so well compared with nowadays standar. In a more "updated" style I'd add:

- GW Moria goblins and uruks scouts (the ones with light armour and bows).
- Redbox goblins
- Thunderbolt Mountain goblins
- Mithril Orcs (these are between oldschool and actual style IMO)

I don't think the GW orcs are Tolkien-accurate. The small Moria ones have those odd bug eyes, which really doesn't fit with Tolkien's descriptions of "slant eyes". And the Uruk scouts fall down in several respects:

- they are too tall (in that respect, they might fit the description of the half-orcs better);
- they are not "squat and broad";
- they are not equipped with gear "like that of Men"; of which
- their swords are peculiarly right-angled or hooked; they seem to be a type of falchion or scimitar, with which the Isengarder's swords are specifically contrasted; they certainly don't look like swords that Men would use.
- their bows are short, unlike the "long bows of yew" described in the book;
- their shields aren't large and round as described in the book;
- their helmets don't have badges for the S-rune
- they aren't wearing mail.

If you're being very picky, you might sniff (both puns intended! ) at the long noses of the Red Box goblins - hardly "flat faces".

The Thunderbolt ones look very appropriate (and are quite superb miniatures).

The Mithril ones are a bit odd. They have quite small heads, proportionately, which doesn't fit, and I think a lot of them are too tall. Also, if memory serves, their Isengard Uruk-hai don't have the right gear (too stereotypically "Orcish"). The ones I have don't wear to wear shoes (which at least some Orcs did: heavy, iron-nailed shoes at that).

Two questions wich have costed me countless sleepless night:
- What color are Orc eyes? Red? Human-like? Simian-like? Whatever you want because Tolkien never described them?

They're never described as red, as far as I know. There's a description of the orc-chieftain in Moria with eyes that "burned like coals". That could be read as "glowing", "black" or just "fierce". It's a description that could be applied to a human, so it's hard to read too much into it. My guess would be that their eyes were fairly human-like (unlike, say, Gollum's glowing "lamps"). I think red eyes were popularised by Bakshi and Angus McBride - and perhaps by association with the heraldry of Mordor too.

- And Orc blood, is red or black?

The Hobbit has a reference to rocks that are "stained black with goblin blood" or something, but I don't think that's decisive. Again, you could imagine a description of rocks "stained black with blood" in a fight between Men (it would depend on the starting colour of the rocks!).  There may be other references, but those may or may not point to the final conception. Shagrat, in Return of the King, has "a long red knife". Is it just made of some red metal, or is it red with the blood of the Orcs he's recently stabbed (Gorbag for one)?

Trolls, on the other hand, certainly have black blood (as seen in Moria and on the Cormallen).

[Hobgoblin]

I'm with Daniel36,
For me 'goblins' will always be the weedier orcs, while Orcs are the ones you need to take seriously at your peril (and Uruk-Hai even more so). It is a convenient shorthand to differentiate them in much the same way that all the different Indian sword types are actually just the term 'sword' in different languages and dialects... talwar, tegha, shamshir, sosun pattah, nimcha, pata, etc.

Daniel notes that he observes the distinction in his world, though.  In The Lord of the Rings, "goblin" is much more often used to describe the big soldier-orcs of Isengard and Mordor than it is to describe smaller breeds. In fact, I think there is just one occasion in the whole book when it's used specifically to describe smaller Orcs. And that's in a context when those "smaller goblins" are being specifically contrasted with larger goblins. So it might be convenient shorthand, but it's certainly not Tolkien's shorthand!

To expand on this a little, people often talk about "Moria goblins", for some reason, meaning small ones. But there are some very large orcs in Moria - including, apparently, the largest individual we see anywhere in LotR. There are some small ones too, of course, like those that crop up in Rohan. Those are described as goblins once, whereas Isengarders are described as goblins thrice (twice directly and once implicitly). There is a general reference to goblins in The Fellowship of the Ring, when the Fellowship are expecting pursuit, but of course that covers all the potential pursuers (and the only ones that we've had described in any detail at that point are the "large and evil" "black Uruks of Mordor").

By the way, did you see the note I made further up about the possibility - a tantalising one! - of those mysterious Morgul cavalry being Orcs rather than Men?

[Cubs]

I've always wondered about the whole concept of the Moria goblins/orcs and their relationship with the Balrog.

On the one hand it seems to fit Sauron's purpose to fill a strategic stronghold like that with his servants, in which case he might have arranged for the Balrog to whup some Goblin butt and force them to toe the line.

But on the other hand, I think it's Gandlaf who says (or hints) the Dwarves dug too deep and 'released' the Balrog. This would suggest to me it was lurking underground, either because that was its favoured domain and they angered it by disturbing it, or because it was trapped in some way and they enabled it to escape.

Certainly the Moria goblins/orcs appear to be as terrified of the Balrog as everyone else is, even though they are all servants of Sauron (and Morgoth presumably). Is this simply the normal sort of emotion they feel towards their brutal leaders, or the result of being bound against their will to an enormously powerful entity that some short eejits have let loose?

[Hobgoblin]

There are some interesting thoughts on those topics here:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB4.html

The point at the end about the Moria orcs not siding with Grishnakh's troop is quite interesting.

[Daniel36]

I am already starting to inch towards removing goblins from my world and stick to just orcs.

So unimportant hahah... But all for fun... Tbis thread is certainly an inspiration to me.

[Arthadan]

I don't think the GW orcs are Tolkien-accurate. The small Moria ones have those odd bug eyes, which really doesn't fit with Tolkien's descriptions of "slant eyes".

It can be easily fixed with painting:

And the Uruk scouts fall down in several respects:

- they are too tall (in that respect, they might fit the description of the half-orcs better);
- they are not "squat and broad";
- they are not equipped with gear "like that of Men"; of which
- their swords are peculiarly right-angled or hooked; they seem to be a type of falchion or scimitar, with which the Isengarder's swords are specifically contrasted; they certainly don't look like swords that Men would use.
- their bows are short, unlike the "long bows of yew" described in the book;
- their shields aren't large and round as described in the book;
- their helmets don't have badges for the S-rune
- they aren't wearing mail.

If you're being very picky, you might sniff (both puns intended! )

I'd use those as half-orcs. my collection is 28mm so these are a bit smaller.

at the long noses of the Red Box goblins - hardly "flat faces".

You're right. I was thinking about this quote, but it turns out the tracker's nose seems to be wide rather than pointy:

Presently two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils: evidently a tracker of some kind.

The Thunderbolt ones look very appropriate (and are quite superb miniatures).

Agreed!

The Mithril ones are a bit odd. They have quite small heads, proportionately, which doesn't fit, and I think a lot of them are too tall. Also, if memory serves, their Isengard Uruk-hai don't have the right gear (too stereotypically "Orcish"). The ones I have don't wear to wear shoes (which at least some Orcs did: heavy, iron-nailed shoes at that).

I think heads look ok.


The Isengarders you're refering to are half-orcs and as such they have Man height. I'd probably use them as "goblin-men, they're ugly as hell.

[Arthadan]

Daniel notes that he observes the distinction in his world, though.   In The Lord of the Rings, "goblin" is much more often used to describe the big soldier-orcs of Isengard and Mordor than it is to describe smaller breeds. In fact, I think there is just one occasion in the whole book when it's used specifically to describe smaller Orcs. And that's in a context when those "smaller goblins" are being specifically contrasted with larger goblins. So it might be convenient shorthand, but it's certainly not Tolkien's shorthand!

To expand on this a little, people often talk about "Moria goblins", for some reason, meaning small ones. But there are some very large orcs in Moria - including, apparently, the largest individual we see anywhere in LotR. There are some small ones too, of course, like those that crop up in Rohan. Those are described as goblins once, whereas Isengarders are described as goblins thrice (twice directly and once implicitly). There is a general reference to goblins in The Fellowship of the Ring, when the Fellowship are expecting pursuit, but of course that covers all the potential pursuers (and the only ones that we've had described in any detail at that point are the "large and evil" "black Uruks of Mordor").

By the way, did you see the note I made further up about the possibility - a tantalising one! - of those mysterious Morgul cavalry being Orcs rather than Men?

A quick quote to support Hobgoblin's deep lore knowledge (when the Dwarves are trappes in the "front porch" of the goblins):

Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks.

Also from The Hobbit:
The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. "A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones," thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the ores of the mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground.

[Vermis]

- they are too tall (in that respect, they might fit the description of the half-orcs better);

I have to admit, one thing I kinda liked about PJ's LotR were the uruk-hai berzerkers. I'd still like to use the GW minis in games (mostly because I already shelled out for a bunch, in metal, at ebay OOP prices) but they may have to be goblin-men.
'Course, the problem then is that they don't have heavy mail and axes. Although they still might be more easily slotted into a Tolkienist view, as a sideline to the main body of half-orcs, than the regular plate-covered, square-sworded uruk-hai. (I have too many of those too; good thing they were only second-hand plastic prices...)

- their helmets don't have badges for the S-rune

In the elven Cirth, a V-shape set on it's side.

What's the opinion on setting that on it's side, as an 'upright' V-shape, just for aesthetic reasons? Too easily mistaken for an actual V, or an upside-down O-rune?

Oh, and orcs have a higher concentration of hemoglobin in their erythrocytes, of a type with less affinity to oxygen. (I.e. gives up oxygen to tissues and becomes deoxygenated more readily) That's why their blood is dark, and why they can charge across Rohan so steadily and for so long.

[Hobgoblin]

Ah - I was thinking of this chap (who I had long ago): it turns out he's a Mordor uruk; I'd filed off the eye on the shield:

http://www.mithril59.com/m150.htm


He does have a relatively small head, though (and is a bit tall)! I have few others kicking about, including the two you posted, which I think are among the best.