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Author Topic: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic  (Read 8268 times)

Offline nic-e

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 10:41:33 PM »
The problem with magic in Tolkien is that it only really has two settings. Either subtle (gandalf inspiring bilbo to go on his quests using the ring of fire ect. ) Or GODLY OVERPOWERED! (the war against morgoth ect.)  There are very few times when there is an in between, because magic is a direct product of pure divine power.
 
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Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 10:45:23 PM »
The problem with magic in Tolkien is that it only really has two settings. Either subtle (gandalf inspiring bilbo to go on his quests using the ring of fire ect. ) Or GODLY OVERPOWERED! (the war against morgoth ect.)  There are very few times when there is an in between, because magic is a direct product of pure divine power.
 

I think you can make a case for some practical "battle magic" too, though. Gandalf's pine cones have been mentioned, but there's also this:

"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

That's not a million miles from a DR-style power bolt.

Offline Dilettante Gamer

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 10:54:35 PM »
I think you can make a case for some practical "battle magic" too, though. Gandalf's pine cones have been mentioned, but there's also this:

"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

That's not a million miles from a DR-style power bolt.

The man cites his evidence!  :)
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Offline throwsFireball

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 11:22:30 PM »
Funnily, it might be that he wasn't using magic (at least not a lot of magic) but instead using primitive science.

Kind of like the older versions of D&D with the somatic ingredient requirements for some spells which were always really stupid and over the top. Like a piece of metal wire in order to cast lightning bolt (acting like a lightning rod) and gunpowder for fireball.

Offline nic-e

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 11:28:18 PM »
Funnily, it might be that he wasn't using magic (at least not a lot of magic) but instead using primitive science.

Kind of like the older versions of D&D with the somatic ingredient requirements for some spells which were always really stupid and over the top. Like a piece of metal wire in order to cast lightning bolt (acting like a lightning rod) and gunpowder for fireball.

If you haven't already, you should read the last ringbearer . It's a a telling of the story of the war of the ring from the point of view of sauron and mordor, with gandalf being a pagan religious despot determined to stop the progress offered by the enlightened nations and keep the races of middle earth trapped in believing his mysticism.

Offline throwsFireball

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 11:35:10 PM »
If you haven't already, you should read the last ringbearer . It's a a telling of the story of the war of the ring from the point of view of sauron and mordor, with gandalf being a pagan religious despot determined to stop the progress offered by the enlightened nations and keep the races of middle earth trapped in believing his mysticism.

I've heard of it, actually.

I was considering a similar setting for a campaign. Not-Mordor falls but the nations of man are overrun by orcs with much greater technological prowess (who, until now, were kept in some sort of thrall by Not-Sauron). Not-Middle Earth quickly becomes a thriving economy based around rampant industrialisation.

Players would play in the cusp of a new era, where humans, dwarves and halflings (elves long since extinct, as far as the majority of the population knows) are seeking emancipation and the possibility of travelling across the seas in a journey of exploration is there.

Offline Conquistador

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 11:42:54 PM »
Mordor - enlightened.   :o.    o_o.

I wonder what the slaves of Mordor would say about enlightened.

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Offline nic-e

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 12:00:14 AM »
Mordor - enlightened.   :o.    o_o.

I wonder what the slaves of Mordor would say about enlightened.



The story is basically written on the principle of "history written by the victors" and in fact, the orcs are just men, made into monsters by the propaganda of kings and slowly failing pagan wizards who want to keep control of the ancient world, not loose it to sauron, who rather than being the literal devils assistant, is in fact a benign and progressive leader who is building his nation on technology science and rationality rather than magic.

Would you really call the hobbits enlightened? They essentially get press ganged/ tricked into doing the bidding of a wizard with the end goal of destabling a nation and destroying a species.

Offline nicknorthstar

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 12:26:40 AM »
Trolls. I always thought Angus McBride's paintings got Trolls right: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/390898442633670338/
(hope the links work.) Green grey scaly skin. If you look at Angus's drawings he trys to capture that. If you look at the drawing of the Trolls by the man himself in the Hobbit, they have scaly skin.http://earing.80port.net/images/illust/jrrtolkien/The%20Trolls.jpg
 I concede there is an earlier drawing of the three trolls and Gandalf where the trolls are not scaly, but the trolls are pretty uninspiring in that drawing anyway.  :)

Pointy Ears in Elves. The letter from Tolkien quoted earlier is proof enough that he envisaged pointy ears on elves. There is also a sketch of two elves in a forest by Tolkien where the Elves have pointy ears (and very pointy shoes).

Magic. I think Tolkiens magic was influenced by Finnish folk lore, which he loved. I'm not a student of Finnish folk lore, but I was left with the impression magic was in song, the songs were spells that grew as the song went on. The best example is in the Silmarillion, in the story of Beren and Luthien, where the magic duel between Sauron and Finrod were magic songs. I'm not sure how to put that in game terms, it'd take some thought, maybe a system already has. In regards to Dragon Rampant, this is a game that is meant to be fast and simple, so a long singing duel doesn't really fit the style. I think the spells as they are work for ME, perhaps drop Bog Thee! Dragon's Breath & Stronger Shields. I would also say no Wizardlings, confining magic users to major characters like Gandalf, Galadriel and Lord of the Nazgul.

Offline nicknorthstar

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 12:42:11 AM »
Last Ringbearer. I've never read that, but I had similar thoughts once, and raised eyebrows within my MERP group when i claimed Sauron was the good guy. The Prof was a right snob, bless him, and equated working class yobbos like myself to Orcs. So if you accept that Orcs might just be the proletariat, and Sauron being their rabble-rousing leader obsessed with industry and the power of the industrial working class, what do Elves and their running dog lackeys the Numenoreans look like? They look like reactionaries, obsessed with hereditary monarchy, and a rural based economy in the hands of an aristocracy. So as an urban proletariat working in industry, who sounds the better option to you.

I agree the idea doesn't hold up under deep analysis  lol

Offline Conquistador

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 01:59:36 AM »
Snip
I agree the idea doesn't hold up under deep analysis  lol

I will let that statement stand on it's own merits.

 ;).  :)

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:44:37 AM by Westfalia Chris »

Offline Vermis

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 03:24:47 AM »
I can foresee this topic going downhill fairly quickly.

Offline KGatch113

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 06:45:56 AM »
I can foresee this topic going downhill fairly quickly.

Don't you mean......Underhill????

Offline KGatch113

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 06:50:44 AM »


I can remember a speech some gentlemen from the SCA gave us at our school in the late 70's, early 80's on LOTR, and one of them said Gandalf never cast a spell over 4th level. Maybe that is true, but I'd suspect he cast magic behind the scenes, mostly to augment himself. In DnD terms ....( I see Istari wizards more as clerics than mages, but I'm more familiar with Wizard spells in that game) Gandalf would have been casting spells like Mage Armor, Shield to protect himself, maybe Tenser's Transformation for fighting, etc We have to assume he boosted himself in some way when fighting the Balrog ( in a gaming sense that is....).


Offline Daeothar

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Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 07:57:17 AM »
The story is basically written on the principle of "history written by the victors" and in fact, the orcs are just men, made into monsters by the propaganda of kings and slowly failing pagan wizards who want to keep control of the ancient world, not loose it to sauron, who rather than being the literal devils assistant, is in fact a benign and progressive leader who is building his nation on technology science and rationality rather than magic.

Would you really call the hobbits enlightened? They essentially get press ganged/ tricked into doing the bidding of a wizard with the end goal of destabling a nation and destroying a species.

There's an absolutely hilarious (at least I think so) book written by Mary Gentle, called 'Grunts!' It details the exploits of a group of orks who stumble upon a dragon's hoard, which exists of all matter of wargear the (apparently dimension traveling) dragon nabbed on our earth. The dragon dies, but cursed his hoard with the words 'You become what you steal'.

So when they leave, bedecked in 20th century military equipment and weapons, they pretty quickly turn into ork marines. Long story short; they basically industrialise the entire fantasy world they're in, recruiting all races into their army, setting up factories and eventually organise democratic (well, sort of) elections, campaigning for their previous dark lord.

It's a riot, but a great read, taking shots at all fantasy and even scifi tropes, whilst telling the entire tale from the perspective of the 'bad' guys.

I've also read a series of books (even though they did not quite capture me as much as Grunts!) called Goblin Quest, which basically does the same, but restricted to the dungeon crawl trope. Fun, but not as memorable.

Games like Dungeon Keeper (PC) and Dungeon Lords (Board game) have always drawn me in too, so I will be sure to check out The last ringbearer too...
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