[Goalsystem] Super Mission Force

[fourcolorfigs]

Personally I'm quite curious to see how some of the more extreme cases stack up. In particular somebody going all street level vs. somebody going all powerhouses. With the simple customization we have right now they might actually stack up ok in the end, since there isn't enough room to min-max things to breaking point.

Me too! And I hope this is the case. The abstraction can work in our favor here.

I am just working around the edges on things now. Tightening and balancing as we go. For example, I felt like Density Increase need a little more oomph, so I added +1 Re-roll on melee attacks to it. Also gave Melee Weapon a dice bonus when breaking objects. Just little things like that.

I hope to get in another play-test game or two this weekend.

[pitac]

Play test notes...
Pictures at http://rangerdavegames.blogspot.com/
Seek and Find, Subplot  resource and image (felt super to the game), Emanations (again cool)
Knocked out two heroes. Captured one.

Possible rule book edits
Page 5 character ask for description,  this is not on the character sheet
Page 12 asterisk on too many places, Move, BD, PD, choose 3
Page 48 subplot TN2 or TN3
Page 24 Teleport example 2+ chance, unless teleporting hero counts
Page 36 Not a big deal, but I thought you were going to allow range in close combat.  Works either way.

David

[Zeebeest]

Hey guys,

I've been away for a few days, but managed to play my first game with fellow play tester SurfSlurf yesterday. We had some fun and had ourselves a discussion about the rules.
We both have some questions and comments, sorry for the lengthy post.

Questions:

1. Can you use more than one movement based power as part of your move action? Example: Flight and Shrinking.

2. If you stand up from being prone/knocked down, can you still start flying?

3. Can you use healing to heal yourself, since it says models in melee contact and doesn't mention self healing? If so, maybe add it.

4. When you turn invisible while in melee contact, can you still be targeted by an attack without any check?

Comments:

1. We don't think Super Strength needs a ranged attack, it doesn't add to the character of the power to be able to pull a big piece of whatever out of thin air and throw it. If you want a thing like this add a throw object super club variant.

2. The shield is a little OP, especially the ranged stance, we would remove the re-roll at least.

3. In comparison with other ranged powers (or powers with a range capability like shield or super strength) Archery is under powered. We thought adding a re-roll and giving you one arrow of each type, meaning 5, for one use only (except blast), no recharge. You can only carry that many arrows but at least you have an arrow for each situation.

4. Why do blasters and speedster have access to super strength, I know it doesn't matter anymore since you can mix and match now (which isn't in the spirit of the game), but still.

This leads me to this and I said this before, you have to choose which path to take, the complete and more difficult super game (you did this, it's called Super System) or the fast pick up and play you want to make now. If you want to make a fast game there are going to be limitations. I don't think giving this game the mix and match option aids in this regard. I understand this is done mostly for people who want to play with named supers and recreate them, but for custom supers this is paradise, as it opens the game for some nasty combo's.

5. Why don't you make melee weapon an auto hit like armor too? Please don't make it so. And don't make armor an auto too. If you do this give other powers auto's too, it was good with 2 re-rolls, why change a good thing?

6. And the best for last... Flight... OP much. Do you realize that you can hover 1” above the battlefield and be completely immune to melee attacks. Or that you can move well out of range of any ranged attack just by flying 20” above a building. Give flight a fixed hover hight (same as in SS4) , say 15”, that way flight has the minor disadvantage of not being able to seek cover as easily . And removes the OP possibilities, plus it plays faster and that is the whole point right.
I think that is about it for now (no doubt forgot some stuff).

Greetings,

Zeebeest & SurfSlurf.

[fourcolorfigs]

Hey guys,

I've been away for a few days, but managed to play my first game with fellow play tester SurfSlurf yesterday. We had some fun and had ourselves a discussion about the rules.
We both have some questions and comments, sorry for the lengthy post.

Wow! Ok, lots of stuff to dig into, so let's get started!

1. Can you use more than one movement based power as part of your move action? Example: Flight and Shrinking.

Generally no. I fixed Shrinking's wording it makes it clear that it's a free action to shrink or grow, not connected to Move.

2. If you stand up from being prone/knocked down, can you still start flying?

Yes. This would be part of your move.

3. Can you use healing to heal yourself, since it says models in melee contact and doesn't mention self healing? If so, maybe add it.

Yes, I adjusted the wording ot make this clear. I also adjusted the way healing works a bit. It' a major power and should be pretty good. If you check the latest download you'll see the changes.

4. When you turn invisible while in melee contact, can you still be targeted by an attack without any check?

Yes. I changed the way Invisibility / Obscurement work. They're melded together now, much simpler, and much easier to use in play, IMO.

As an aside, I dislike powers like Invisibility for skirmish games. Skulking around and making yourself impossible to attack are not fun, IMO. So these new versions reflect this. You can ALWAYS attack an Invisible / Obscured character now. If you can't detect them, they'll just gain a bonus based which version of the power they took. Each version requires a Recharge check after the first turn of use.

Comments:

1. We don't think Super Strength needs a ranged attack, it doesn't add to the character of the power to be able to pull a big piece of whatever out of thin air and throw it. If you want a thing like this add a throw object super club variant.

I respectfully disagree.    I read a ton of comics. A lot of Trimpe Hulk issues. He's always grabbing stuff and throwing it around, and so do his foes. That being said, I nerfed it a bit for major Super-Strength, and took it away entirely for minor Super-Strength. Hope this compromise works for you!

2. The shield is a little OP, especially the ranged stance, we would remove the re-roll at least.

Again, I agree to an extent. The ranged attack remains, but now it's a flat 3D, 10" ranged attack--should not be as good as a minor Power Blast.

3. In comparison with other ranged powers (or powers with a range capability like shield or super strength) Archery is under powered. We thought adding a re-roll and giving you one arrow of each type, meaning 5, for one use only (except blast), no recharge. You can only carry that many arrows but at least you have an arrow for each situation.

I think Archery gives you a lot of versatility. Unlimited minor Power Blasts, and one guaranteed use of each power in your quiver is pretty good, and you've a chance to use them again if you make the roll. 

4. Why do blasters and speedster have access to super strength, I know it doesn't matter anymore since you can mix and match now (which isn't in the spirit of the game), but still.

These selections could be a topic of endless discussion since we can all name characters who have featured certain power combos. That being said I've gone back and reexamined every set for the standard Archetypes. I made it so each standard Archetype has 7 selections, and I re-jiggered some of the picks. Take a look and let me know what you think.

More on your other point, which seems to have unsettled you a bit, in a moment. 

s me to this and I said this before, you have to choose which path to take, the complete and more difficult super game (you did this, it's called Super System) or the fast pick up and play you want to make now. If you want to make a fast game there are going to be limitations. I don't think giving this game the mix and match option aids in this regard. I understand this is done mostly for people who want to play with named supers and recreate them, but for custom supers this is paradise, as it opens the game for some nasty combo's.

I have been thinking about this the last few days and I agree with you. I removed the section on mixing and matching. It's gone. Players can employ the golden rule of Goalsystem games and do all of the mixing and matching they want without my permission. I want SMF to be a quick, fun, pick up and play Supers game with a few deeper campaign elements thrown in. A hard line to walk, but I think I am doing it so far. We'll see....

5. Why don't you make melee weapon an auto hit like armor too? Please don't make it so. And don't make armor an auto too. If you do this give other powers auto's too, it was good with 2 re-rolls, why change a good thing?

I like experimenting with different mechanics, and having used the current version of Armor (with the 1 auto-soak), I like it. I don't find it at all disruptive in play or over-powered. When you invest a Minor power, it's a big resource, I feel like Armor's very simple, potent 1 auto-soak rewards that.

I played a game yesterday where we had Hulk built as a Powerhouse (combining Brick and Wildcard) against MODOK and Armadillo. Both Hulk and Armadillo had Armor, and it did not detract from play IMO. It worked out fine. I will be curious to get other folks' take on it too.

6. And the best for last... Flight... OP much. Do you realize that you can hover 1” above the battlefield and be completely immune to melee attacks. Or that you can move well out of range of any ranged attack just by flying 20” above a building. Give flight a fixed hover hight (same as in SS4) , say 15”, that way flight has the minor disadvantage of not being able to seek cover as easily . And removes the OP possibilities, plus it plays faster and that is the whole point right.
I think that is about it for now (no doubt forgot some stuff).

I fixed this. Of course it was never my intent for this to be the case. It was just a quirk of the wording, but thanks to you, it's fixed! 

Really great feedback. You and your buddy are making this a better game, and I really appreciate it!

[fergal]

I have been thinking about this the last few days and I agree with you. I removed the section on mixing and matching. It's gone. Players can employ the golden rule of Goalsystem games and do all of the mixing and matching they want without my permission. I want SMF to be a quick, fun, pick up and play Supers game with a few deeper campaign elements thrown in. A hard line to walk, but I think I am doing it so far. We'll see....

I heartily agree, I meant to send a PM to you on this subject but got busy this week.  You original vision is great and you shown you have proven instincts when it comes to design. Simple, fun, super 

[fourcolorfigs]

Play test notes...
Pictures at http://rangerdavegames.blogspot.com/
Seek and Find, Subplot  resource and image (felt super to the game), Emanations (again cool)

Do you mean felt "superfluous"? If so, not a good thing. I like the Sublot mechanic a lot and I am hoping it works for folks. It lets you inject some character elements into the game, and rewards you with a few extra dice to be used in crucial moments. This IMO, of course. 

In using it so far, I've liked it. But I am biased! 

Page 5 character ask for description,  this is not on the character sheet

Fixed this!

Page 12 asterisk on too many places, Move, BD, PD, choose 3

Fixed.

Page 48 subplot TN2 or TN3

Fixed!

Page 24 Teleport example 2+ chance, unless teleporting hero counts

Fixed!

Page 36 Not a big deal, but I thought you were going to allow range in close combat.  Works either way.

Yeah, must be used outside of Melee; this allows for niche protection for the Brawlers and Bricks. And that 30" range is deadly with 6D.

Thanks! Great job making the rules tighter!

[fourcolorfigs]

I heartily agree, I meant to send a PM to you on this subject but got busy this week.  You original vision is great and you shown you have proven instincts when it comes to design. Simple, fun, super 

Thanks! You and Zeebeast have nicely steered me back to my original intent. This process is about compromises, of course. I am always willing to listen to constructive feedback!

[Zeebeest]

Thanks! You and Zeebeast have nicely steered me back to my original intent. This process is about compromises, of course. I am always willing to listen to constructive feedback!

That's the plan  

I really love SS4 and this is not it! This is a whole different beast (ok, maybe it has the same ears and tail, but you get my drift). Supersystem to me is about being able to create almost anything and taking the time (quite a lot) to make it work.

SMF is the game I will pick up when playing with less experienced people or just don't have the time to invest, but still want to get the intense feel of a superhero game.

I have a feeling that my SS4 and SMF games will flow into each other in the future.

Hopefully I'll get some more playtests soon and try to break your game (we are min maxers, it's what we do). But only so we can make this a real good game.

Thanks for the great feedback, additions, clarifications and especially the opportunity to be a part of this.

Greetings,

Zeebeest (stupid thing to mention, but you keep writing my name wrong ).

Ps: forgot one thing we discussed. How about the boosts, although since mix&match is gone this is maybe it's good to keep them. We don't think you need them since you can take powers and the though boost for example is a bit like armor imho. Let me think about this some more .

[Zeebeest]

Hey guys,

Something to ponder on...

Say you shrink, crawl aboard a speedster and ride along into combat next turn.
Do you automaticaly enter combat when the speedster does? We would say yes.
And if the speedster charges, do you also gain the bonus for charging since you also benefit from the momentum? We would say no.

Greetings,

Zeebeest&SurfSlurf.

[Erethor]

I don't agree with removing the Mix and Matching part. The whole section is about discussing it with your group and about how it's optional. It's not about trying to find a "killer combo", it's about wanting a specific feel for a hero/villain that the other options don't provide. There's even a balancing option (subplot dice) for those who feel it's over powered.

I've made TONS of characters using SS4, put in lots of time. I can make those same heroes in less than a minute, even with mixing and matching, in SMF. I don't find there to be any "time investment" beyond what the normal rules require.

The gameplay doesn't become any more complicated. I don't feel it takes away from the design simplicity to say "here's some cool ideas that you and your group may want to talk over and incorporate." Groups are going to do that anyways, but many people may have different ideas about how to incorporate mixing/matching (maybe even involving points costs ), and having some kind of official word/starting point goes a long way.

[Erny]

I agree with Erethor. I belive a, friendly game doesn't need to worry about min maxing. Indeed all the best games I can think of have loop holes you could drive a tank through if you put your mind to it. Now I'm an adult, who happens to play toy soldiers, I can decide to ignore rules and add rules if I want but that makes it a game yuo have to modify, the tone of a rules set can make or break a classic. I've bought a load of skirmish rules over the past few years many rely on  achitypes and the first thing that happens is you make note of the ones that are missing, the rules you need to ignore or add, then you think why bother perhaps the next one cracks it.

I get SS4, its a bit crunchy for me these days but I get the fun of a really tight broad rules set, a broad range of powers and combinations in high detail.  Looser rules sets are fun too. This puts me in the opposite camp to zeebeest capturing the breath of powers of ss4 is a good thing not a bad thing. Restrictions aren't fun, choice is but for simplicities sake we just loose a little detail to abstraction that we fill in with imagination.  So capturing the tightness of ss4 is where you should diverge otherwise you just have SS4 light. Indeed if you did that you'd have a bit of a holy grail of supers games on your hands.

[fourcolorfigs]

Ps: forgot one thing we discussed. How about the boosts, although since mix&match is gone this is maybe it's good to keep them. We don't think you need them since you can take powers and the though boost for example is a bit like armor imho. Let me think about this some more .

I like the added versatility boosts provide. They're simple and give someone other options. So we'll be keeping them! 

[Erethor]

I had some questions about Flight. Does hovering 15" above the battlefield mean from the lowest point of the battlefield (the table) or whatever is beneath the flying model (buildings, stairs, etc.)?

If the figure is hovering 15" away, are 15" powerblasts still able to hit them? If so, and if they can't be targeted in melee anyways, there's no point in specifying a "hover distance".

One idea I had for flight was along the lines of:

"Activate this power at the beginning of your move action. You can land as a free action. You can fly up to 20" per turn, up or down any height, ignoring terrain and other characters that don't also have flight. While flying, you cannot be targeted by melee attacks by non-flying enemies. If you attack a non-flying enemy in close combat, you are no longer considered flying."

This doesn't include the fly-by attack, or carrying stuff, but just a general idea of how to restructure the power. Thoughts?

[fourcolorfigs]

Ok, I tried cleaning this up and clarifying it.


=============

Flight (minor)
Activate this power and take flight at the beginning of your move action. You can land as a free action. You can fly up to 20” per turn, ignoring any grounded models or obstacles in your path. You may choose to land on an object or piece of terrain, or hover in place. When you do hover you float 15” above the tabletop. When hovering you cannot be targeted with melee attacks by foes on the ground. When you attack a grounded foe in melee you are considered to be landed, and cannot take off again until your next turn. This counts as charging.You can carry a single passenger or object commensurate with your strength level. A flying character with normal strength can carry a single normal sized passenger, but a super-strong flyer can carry large objects aloft with them.


Characters targeting flying foes with ranged attacks should simply measure the linear distance between them.


Example: Grav-Girl (Flight) starts her turn on the ground and takes off as part of her Move action. She flies 10” and along the way swoops down and strikes at Wildman. She hits him and does 2 Body damage. She’s now landed and in melee with WIldman.


Example: Doc Shock targets Ferrosaur with a ranged attack. She hovers 15” in the air, and 24” away from Doc, but his player simply measures the 24” linear distance. That’s well within Doc’s 30” Power Blast range!
============


Borrowed a bit from SS4, a bit from what was there, and some of your suggested text, Erethor.

God, I hate writing flying rules. 

[Cait Sidhe]

First off I agree about the section on mixing up power choices. I don't see any harm in including it, it's very clear the intended balance is what's available and it's purely optional. I'd also like to see boosts stay, quite often the available powers don't fit what you're going for and it's good to have some generic options.

So played a three player game tonight with 2 characters each, just a straight up fight no fancy scenarios. We came up with quite a few questions on how some things work exactly but we didn't write them down... so just going by memory and there will probably still be a lot.

1. Heh, great one of my many queries was gonna be about flying and range (hovering 15" meant you couldn't hit or be hit by minor power blasts except directly above) which you've already clarified now. I assume the linear range measurement counts for flyers shooting characters on the ground too?

2. Also what happens when a flyer is hit by entangle? Is there any way to force a flyer down besides the Speedster maneuver?

3. When are recharge rolls made? I feel like I read that they happen at the start of the turn but couldn't find anything specific. If you use a power that needs a recharge and have free actions remaining that turn can you immediately make a recharge check for it in the same turn?

4. Using telekinesis you can move an ally who is 15" away so I guess you can move them a completely different direction from the character using the power? Do they need to remain within 15" during the move?

5. How does the super club portion of telekinesis work as there's no specific rules for throwing stuff? Can you grab an object up to 15" away and smack an enemy who's also 15" away with it in one combat action? Does the item need to be within a certain distance of the target?

6. For Sorcery and powers which require a recharge roll already you simply use the higher, what of abilities that can be pushed at the cost of adding a recharge? There appears to be no downside to taking 6D force fields on every use when using sorcery as there will always be a 2+ recharge on it anyway.

7. Can the summoning power be used to summon more and more creatures? Is there a limit to how many things you can have summoned?

8. Is the Knock Out roll made immediately upon losing the last pip of health? We had a scenario where Spiderman punched Venom taking off the last of his health and knocking him off a roof, would he make the knock out roll before the fall or after?

9. With multiple players (more than 2) how should the initiative/turn order go? We played that highest initiative could activate a model or defer to next highest then they could do the same.