[Goalsystem] Super Mission Force

[Zeebeest]

Hey guys,

First and foremost, it's great to see people argue about a game in it's early stages. That's what it's all about. We are trying to help Scott make his vision clear and in doing so trying to make his game, our game.

About the mix/match subject. I don't think it is needed, in a way that you can make almost any character you can think of (custom or named), by using the rules as they are now. Using the wildcard opens up almost any super combination you want and for those super supers (looking at you big blue), you can always use the powerhouse archetype.

In some very rare cases you might not get to create that one special guy who has it all. Well I hear talk of friendly games, then there is the solution of house ruling, most of the time it will only be one power you can't take so no problem there right. I personally don't think you should include rules for those rare occasions. And I am happy to help make characters you don't think are possible to do or at least give my interpretation of them.

I like the flight rules as they were, the addition of the ranged attack vs flight is weird because previously a flying character could hover up to 20” and be unreachable by most attacks, that's why 15” is better. Remember that flight is a real strong power and a flying blaster for example is a very dangerous opponent.

Boosts. It was just a thought, I don't mind them, just don't see me using them much since there are so many other tasty powers around .

Thanks for reading my opinion and I hope we can discuss some more in the days to come so we can make one hell of a game together. I'm sure Scott values all opinions and reads through all of them with great care.

Greetings,

Zeebeest.

[fourcolorfigs]

1. Heh, great one of my many queries was gonna be about flying and range (hovering 15" meant you couldn't hit or be hit by minor power blasts except directly above) which you've already clarified now. I assume the linear range measurement counts for flyers shooting characters on the ground too?

Works the same. I clarified this.

2. Also what happens when a flyer is hit by entangle? Is there any way to force a flyer down besides the Speedster maneuver?

Added this note to Entangle:

If you entangle a flying target he is tethered in place. If he fails his first breakout attempt he lands on the spot below him and remains entangled.

3. When are recharge rolls made? I feel like I read that they happen at the start of the turn but couldn't find anything specific. If you use a power that needs a recharge and have free actions remaining that turn can you immediately make a recharge check for it in the same turn?

Beginning of the turn. I clarified this.

4. Using telekinesis you can move an ally who is 15" away so I guess you can move them a completely different direction from the character using the power? Do they need to remain within 15" during the move?

No, you cannot. He must remain within your 15" sphere. I clarified this.

5. How does the super club portion of telekinesis work as there's no specific rules for throwing stuff? Can you grab an object up to 15" away and smack an enemy who's also 15" away with it in one combat action? Does the item need to be within a certain distance of the target?

Your target had to also be within 15". And yes, you can grab and strike, just like the rules under super-clubs indicate.

6. For Sorcery and powers which require a recharge roll already you simply use the higher, what of abilities that can be pushed at the cost of adding a recharge? There appears to be no downside to taking 6D force fields on every use when using sorcery as there will always be a 2+ recharge on it anyway.

I fixed this. The recharge increases by +1 for any power push used in the sorcery package.

7. Can the summoning power be used to summon more and more creatures? Is there a limit to how many things you can have summoned?

Yes. But I increased the Recharge to 3+

8. Is the Knock Out roll made immediately upon losing the last pip of health? We had a scenario where Spiderman punched Venom taking off the last of his health and knocking him off a roof, would he make the knock out roll before the fall or after?

Yes, the rules state that when you mark your last box in a track off, you make the check. If you pass it in your case, then you deal with the fall.

9. With multiple players (more than 2) how should the initiative/turn order go? We played that highest initiative could activate a model or defer to next highest then they could do the same.

I clarified this a but in the text, but that's right.

Thanks!

[Erethor]

Hey guys,

First and foremost, it's great to see people argue about a game in it's early stages. That's what it's all about. We are trying to help Scott make his vision clear and in doing so trying to make his game, our game.

Hello Zeebeest,

I don't know you personally, so I hope this is a case of me misunderstanding what you are trying to say. But I think it may be an unfair characterization to say arguing. I don't feel there's any conflict about what's going on. We each have our own preferences and feedback to provide about how the game is developing. We can disagree without it being "arguing".

And above all, it's still Scott's game. Nobody is trying to take that away. Even if my thoughts/preferences veer outside the "intent" of the game and therefore make me not in the "target audience" that's still good information for a developer to have! Providing our thoughts on the game is what playtesting is all about!

About the mix/match subject. I don't think it is needed, in a way that you can make almost any character you can think of (custom or named), by using the rules as they are now.

I don't know your thoughts about the optional Street Level archetype, but I love it! (Without feedback, would we have gotten this?) It seems like this came from the rules, as released, not providing a suitable option for lower/underpowered heroes. It's not about trying to game the rules or eke out any advantage, it's about going after a certain feeling. I think mixing/matching is along the same lines.

Using the wildcard opens up almost any super combination you want and for those super supers (looking at you big blue), you can always use the powerhouse archetype.

My concern with Wildcard is that you can't have any Major powers, some of which may provide the exact feeling I want for a certain character.

For example, Cheetah and Deathstroke (DC villains) are both experts in hand-to-hand (Cheetah can go 1v1 with Wonder Woman!). If I decide to make them Brawlers (the obvious first choice for expert hand-to-hand combatants) Cheetah can't get her (minor) super strength and Deathstroke can't get use of his auto-pistols (minor power blast).

Now sure, I can use Wildcard instead and give them powers to make something close to what I want, but they may not have the specific feeling I was going for that I might get from another archetype. And that's what it comes down to. Not about trying to make overpowered combos or break the rules. It all comes down to trying to achieve a certain feeling.

In some very rare cases you might not get to create that one special guy who has it all. Well I hear talk of friendly games, then there is the solution of house ruling, most of the time it will only be one power you can't take so no problem there right. I personally don't think you should include rules for those rare occasions.

I feel like you're lumping together anyone who wants mixing/matching as some kind of power gamer (apologies if that's not your intent, I don't mean to assume).

Overall, I think you're trying to veer away from an over-abundance of options and I would agree, but in this case we are talking about something completely optional that doesn't add any crazy new rules or complications. If you don't want to use the optional rules for mixing/matching (or powerhouse and street level archetypes while on the subject), you simply don't.

Now, many will want to mix and match regardless of what the rules say. And I think that kind of tinkering should be encouraged, but some structure should be provided, and nothing would do that more than including it in the rulebook 

[Erethor]

I have some rules questions:

Damage Field: It says "Anyone touching you (successful attacks or knockbacks) suffers a 4D Body damage attack." Does this only apply when they hit you and not when you attack them? If so, I'm unclear on the "knockbacks" portion. Is that where an enemy may be knocked into contact you, then they suffer the attack?

Entangle: Says "You can entrap foes in melee or as a ranged attack up to 10” away" (emphasis mine) and "Make a +2D entangle attack." So is entangle a straight 6D roll, or is it +2D to whatever kind of attack roll you're making? For example, does the +1D bonus from power blasts (minor) or +1D melee bonus from Growth stack with the Entangle bonus (in both cases making it 7D)? or can you apply the +2 rerolls from Melee Weapon to a melee Entangle roll?

Speed: With Move-by Attack, does your movement need to be in a straight line, or are you able to zigzag between enemies as long as you have movement?

Teleport: The example includes the Teleporter as a passenger, based on the recharge roll needed. Is this correct? If so, does this mean a teleporter needs to make a recharge roll after every teleport?


Some Design questions:

Massive: It provides the same Body and Move bonus as Amphibious, but also comes with a defense drawback, whereas Amphibious provides another bonus when in water. As is, it still seems like a useful option, but is Massive letting you serve as a mount enough of an equalizer? (genuinely not sure without more playtesting)

Shield: Should the shield ranged attack be 3D? Would 4D be too powerful? 4D follows the general "standard" of 4D (plus any bonuses) for every other Super. At straight 4D and 10" range, it's still less powerful than Minor Power Blasts (as it should be) and that's not including the chance to lose the shield. 4D feels a bit more uniform/harmonious.

Thanks for your time!

[Cait Sidhe]

I dunno if power suggestions are something your taking at the moment but it occurs to me some kind of life stealing power would be useful as it's a reasonably common thing in comics. I had assumed the vampire power was that, but on reading it's a little more niche. Not sure how to avoid it being overpowered maybe something like every 3 damage you inflict in melee heals you one health or something?

I don't know you personally, so I hope this is a case of me misunderstanding what you are trying to say. But I think it may be an unfair characterization to say arguing. I don't feel there's any conflict about what's going on. We each have our own preferences and feedback to provide about how the game is developing. We can disagree without it being "arguing".

I could be wrong but I don't think Zeebeest meant that negatively, I think he meant "discussing" rather than argue.

I also feel wildcard isn't necessarily a substitute for swapping in powers. You might not want to give them 4 different powers or you might need a major power and you're also limited to 2 Wildcards per team so you can't keep using it to make characters fit. Take Cyclops for instance, he's clearly a blaster but which of the currently allowed minor powers fit? In the previous version I gave him Fortune but named it tactics to simulate his training and ability to react but it's no longer a viable option for a Blaster.

I know the game isn't meant to be SuperSystem and indeed compromises have to be made but lets face it, people are still going to want to use it to recreate Marvel or DC characters so the option (and it is optional) should be there. I feel right now the rules already achieve the goal of a simpler set of rules you can get set up and playing within a short amount of time, I don't think and optional suggestion changes that.

[Zeebeest]

Hey guys,

Sorry if I offended anyone, definitely not my intention. I didn't use the word arguing in a negative way or at least not meant it that way. My sincerest apologies.

What I meant was that I'm happy to hear different sides and opinions, especially people who mean it well and want to put in the effort to make stuff like this work.

I understand the reason why you want the mix/match (optional) rule. People will do so whether it is written in the rules or not, and no not for power but for getting the right feel of a character. For me personally it isn't needed, so far I managed to create any character I wanted without to much compromise or losing to much 'character' on them.

The game has grown a lot in the 2 weeks (I think) since it was released to us, and that is all thanks to the feedback, thoughts and ideas people like us give him. I for one am thankful there are a lot of different people, with different ideas helping on this project. All sides have their pro's and cons. Scott will have think about what he sees as the best way for his vision to come to life.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Greetings,

Zeebeest.

Ps: funny how I see cheeta as a speedster and deathstroke more as a melee and ranged weapon fighter. Even wonder woman, I don't like her anymore these days, she is becoming the next superman, it used to be just a lasso and some bracers, but now she's a demi-godess. Supers these days have it all, I like he good old days when you could get around with one or two special things. Sorry, sidetracking.

I for one appreciate the take you guys have on the game and am always prepared to listen, read and 'argue' about it  .

[fourcolorfigs]

I have some rules questions:

Damage Field: It says "Anyone touching you (successful attacks or knockbacks) suffers a 4D Body damage attack." Does this only apply when they hit you and not when you attack them? If so, I'm unclear on the "knockbacks" portion. Is that where an enemy may be knocked into contact you, then they suffer the attack?

Both. I tweaked the example on this. Will upload new file in an hour or so.

Entangle: Says "You can entrap foes in melee or as a ranged attack up to 10” away" (emphasis mine) and "Make a +2D entangle attack." So is entangle a straight 6D roll, or is it +2D to whatever kind of attack roll you're making? For example, does the +1D bonus from power blasts (minor) or +1D melee bonus from Growth stack with the Entangle bonus (in both cases making it 7D)? or can you apply the +2 rerolls from Melee Weapon to a melee Entangle roll?

Entangle is a 6D ranged attack only. I adjusted it to this.

Speed: With Move-by Attack, does your movement need to be in a straight line, or are you able to zigzag between enemies as long as you have movement?

You can zigzag.

Teleport: The example includes the Teleporter as a passenger, based on the recharge roll needed. Is this correct? If so, does this mean a teleporter needs to make a recharge roll after every teleport?

I fixed this error this morning. Will be reflected in the upload.

Some Design questions:

Massive: It provides the same Body and Move bonus as Amphibious, but also comes with a defense drawback, whereas Amphibious provides another bonus when in water. As is, it still seems like a useful option, but is Massive letting you serve as a mount enough of an equalizer? (genuinely not sure without more playtesting)

I added +1 Re-roll on charge attacks for being Massive. This should balance the scales.

Shield: Should the shield ranged attack be 3D? Would 4D be too powerful? 4D follows the general "standard" of 4D (plus any bonuses) for every other Super. At straight 4D and 10" range, it's still less powerful than Minor Power Blasts (as it should be) and that's not including the chance to lose the shield. 4D feels a bit more uniform/harmonious.

Thanks for your time!

Like Magic Hammer, Shield offers a lot of bennies. I like the 3D 10" ranged attack--remember, you roll 4D unless a power or situation dictates otherwise.

Ran a very fun play test game this morning. The Weapon. Cap, Thor, Hawkeye, and Ant-Man VS MODOK, Scorpion, Electro, and Armadillo. Very satisfying, tautly played game. Made a few adjustments to The Weapon because of it.

Again, will upload latest version soonish!

[Erethor]

Hey guys,

Sorry if I offended anyone, definitely not my intention. I didn't use the word arguing in a negative way or at least not meant it that way. My sincerest apologies.

Thanks, but you have nothing to apologize for. I was not offended and genuinely wasn't sure what you meant. As I said, I could have misread the situation and I did. I didn't want to seem accusatory but I may have still come across that way. Please accept my apologies.

*edit*
PM sent.

[fourcolorfigs]

Let me interrupt the love-in ( , you folks are the best!) to offer this power I threw together for the latest update:

Parasite (minor)
You drain the vital energies of your foes and use them to power and heal yourself! Make a 5D Psyche based attack against a foe in melee contact with you. Every Psyche damage box you remove heals one of your own missing Body or Psyche damage boxes, or adds +1 Re-roll to the next dice check of your choice. Re-rolls from this power max out at +3. You can mix and match these benefits as you see fit. For example, if you drain 3 Psyche from a foe, you could heal 2 Body of your own and add +1 Re-roll to your next attack check, or you could heal 1 Psyche, 1 Body, and add +1 Re-roll, and so on.


Comments welcome!

And thanks!

[pitac]

Hit with Stun during flight? Same Q as Entangle.

[pitac]

Another play test with pics at http://rangerdavegames.blogspot.com
Added henchmen
The metamorph was captured from last game. So one side down one hero.
Rolled Weapon scenario with Toga-God.  Mentalist gave talking to Toga a shot, failed, and one well rolled shot he was knocked out. No one else tried again 

Questions/notes
-Phase 2: Building Your Legend, Esoteric Bumps, 4 +1D to Post-Battle Checks**
  Include pre-?  Post knockout is at 5D or only to backgrounds? I could use extra dice or rerolls for knockout 
- need book title on character sheet.
- so you can recharge the turn you use a recharge power use it as a free action?
- is force field of free action?
-  Force Field, is the second 4D against what comes through after your first roll?

- maybe write up the rescue scenario like the others

Battle about seven turns. Again very super hero in feel. I never took out the weapon, but could've used some Advanced Archetype Maneuvers to help boost. 10 henchmen was perfect. All the team members on one team knocked out . They rolled very well and will return with +1D for half the team.

David Ross

[Erethor]

I like the idea of Parasite as a power, but a read-through of it feels too strong.

Vampire lets your melee attack count as Psyche damage. Parasite gives you a 5D melee psyche attack that lets you heal or get re-rolls. Vampire has campaign bonuses, but Parasite still seems way stronger. I think most supers won't have a bonus to psyche defenses, so it's likely for a Parasite model to get a heal back each attack.

They're also kind of similar thematically (Vampires are kind of parasitic creatures), should these two powers be combined?

Regen only lets you heal 1 body and 1 psyche max per turn and that's IF you pass the chance roll. I would suggest that Parasite still let you heal/get re-rolls, but in a limited sense, maybe such as:

"Parasite (minor)
You drain the vital energies of your foes and use them to power and heal yourself! Make a 5D Psyche based attack against a foe in melee contact with you. If you remove at least 1 Psyche damage box, you may heal one of your own missing Body or Psyche damage boxes, or add +1 Re-roll to the next dice check of your choice. You may save Re-rolls gained from this power until you wish to use them, but you may never add more than +3 to any single roll. "

Changes italicized. Thoughts?

[fourcolorfigs]

I like the idea of Parasite as a power, but a read-through of it feels too strong.

Vampire lets your melee attack count as Psyche damage. Parasite gives you a 5D melee psyche attack that lets you heal or get re-rolls. Vampire has campaign bonuses, but Parasite still seems way stronger. I think most supers won't have a bonus to psyche defenses, so it's likely for a Parasite model to get a heal back each attack.

They're also kind of similar thematically (Vampires are kind of parasitic creatures), should these two powers be combined?

Regen only lets you heal 1 body and 1 psyche max per turn and that's IF you pass the chance roll. I would suggest that Parasite still let you heal/get re-rolls, but in a limited sense, maybe such as:

"Parasite (minor)
You drain the vital energies of your foes and use them to power and heal yourself! Make a 5D Psyche based attack against a foe in melee contact with you. If you remove at least 1 Psyche damage box, you may heal one of your own missing Body or Psyche damage boxes, or add +1 Re-roll to the next dice check of your choice. You may save Re-rolls gained from this power until you wish to use them, but you may never add more than +3 to any single roll. "

Changes italicized. Thoughts?

I like it!

[fourcolorfigs]

Questions/notes
-Phase 2: Building Your Legend, Esoteric Bumps, 4 +1D to Post-Battle Checks**
  Include pre-?  Post knockout is at 5D or only to backgrounds? I could use extra dice or rerolls for knockout  

I fixed this to include pre and post-battle checks. Just those checks, not the goal roll you make before the injury test.

- need book title on character sheet.

We'll add this at some point. That sheet is our working copy and will get tweaked.

- so you can recharge the turn you use a recharge power use it as a free action?

No. The rules state you recharge powers/abilities at the beginning of your turn. I just bolded this text so it stands out more.

- is force field of free action?

No, it's a defense that occurs on another character's turn, so it costs you nothing in that sense. It's a reaction.

-  Force Field, is the second 4D against what comes through after your first roll?

No. It is a separate roll. If the attack beats it, you defend against everything. I clarified this a bit.

- maybe write up the rescue scenario like the others

It would a repeat of the one from a previous SS ed., but I could include it I suppose.

Battle about seven turns. Again very super hero in feel. I never took out the weapon, but could've used some Advanced Archetype Maneuvers to help boost. 10 henchmen was perfect. All the team members on one team knocked out . They rolled very well and will return with +1D for half the team.

David Ross

Great report and great feedback, Dave! Much appreciated, and you're in the credits now!  

P.S. Great to see my old models on your table!

[fourcolorfigs]

Hit with Stun during flight? Same Q as Entangle.

Not sure I understand. Successful Stuns take away either your Move or Combat/Special action. If you choose to lose your move, you just hover there motionless, or land. If you choose to lose your combat/special action, you can move, but that's it.

Let me know what needs clarification here.

Thanks!