[Goalsystem] Super Mission Force

[kimryoung]

Knockback/Knockdown thoughts:

The knockback distance for Super-major combined with “Way Outta Here” seems a bit much.  Say a modest 3 damage times 4 for Super-major, tripled for Outta Here is 36” which is pretty much off board. Consider reducing either Super-major to 3” per damage, or only double for Way Outta Here, limiting a 3 damage to 24 or 27” (Still a lot, but perhaps still on the table.)

Should Knockback Always be optional? Perhaps if you roll 2 or more Sixes the opponent is knocked back whether you wanted to or not!

Rules state characters knocked through objects suffer no additional damage. But if Batman knocks Joker into a brick wall, he’s not going through it, so what additional damage is done? Need to address this.

Superman might knock Solomon Grundy through a brick wall and not cause additional damage, but if he knocks Toyman into a wall it’s going to stop him and hurt!

The penalty for Knockdown seems pretty minimal.  Only 2” reduction and the character can come right back with a Charge and get the +1D bonus. Consider a character who is knocked down CANNOT Charge the turn they get up, so therefore cannot get the charge bonus. They can still move normally back into melee if they have enough move after losing 2” of movement.

This gives a reason to inflict Knockback so a character can’t just charge back and get +1D even after being knocked down.

Also, shouldn’t Super Agility reduce the chance of being knocked down? Or if there is a penalty, ignore it?

Thanks for all the effort Scott!

Kim

[Erethor]

Knockback/Knockdown thoughts:

The knockback distance for Super-major combined with “Way Outta Here” seems a bit much.  Say a modest 3 damage times 4 for Super-major, tripled for Outta Here is 36” which is pretty much off board. Consider reducing either Super-major to 3” per damage, or only double for Way Outta Here, limiting a 3 damage to 24 or 27” (Still a lot, but perhaps still on the table.)

Should Knockback Always be optional? Perhaps if you roll 2 or more Sixes the opponent is knocked back whether you wanted to or not!

Rules state characters knocked through objects suffer no additional damage. But if Batman knocks Joker into a brick wall, he’s not going through it, so what additional damage is done? Need to address this.

Superman might knock Solomon Grundy through a brick wall and not cause additional damage, but if he knocks Toyman into a wall it’s going to stop him and hurt!

The penalty for Knockdown seems pretty minimal.  Only 2” reduction and the character can come right back with a Charge and get the +1D bonus. Consider a character who is knocked down CANNOT Charge the turn they get up, so therefore cannot get the charge bonus. They can still move normally back into melee if they have enough move after losing 2” of movement.

This gives a reason to inflict Knockback so a character can’t just charge back and get +1D even after being knocked down.

Also, shouldn’t Super Agility reduce the chance of being knocked down? Or if there is a penalty, ignore it?

Hope you don't mind, but my personal thoughts on this:

-I like Way Outta Here as is. It's only available to Bricks anyways and they are usually portrayed as being able to knock people across cities or even into orbit!

-I would prefer Knockback to remain optional. The simpler/faster combat runs, the better.

-Knocking characters through objects can be thought of as abstracted. Yes, Batman punched Joker through a wall, but maybe the wall was already compromised and weak enough to let a body pass through as the wall crumbles. Or perhaps there was a window there that's just not modeled on the terrain. There's a definite case for houseruling more detail if you wanted to have terrain stopping characters and doing more damage, but I'm not sure about in the rule book.

-I need to think more about the penalty for Knockdown. I feel like it works as is, because other models can charge in after a knockdown and potentially make quick work of the fallen model. For a more severe penalty, I agree you shouldn't get the +1D to attacking when charging after getting up, but I'm not sure getting knocked down should be too limiting. It's more likely to happen than not...

-I feel super-agility is pretty powerful already. You could explain away a Super-Agile character getting knocked down as them being hit in a vulnerable spot or hurt enough that they need a moment to catch their breath/regain their senses.

[fourcolorfigs]

Knockback/Knockdown thoughts:

The knockback distance for Super-major combined with “Way Outta Here” seems a bit much.  Say a modest 3 damage times 4 for Super-major, tripled for Outta Here is 36” which is pretty much off board. Consider reducing either Super-major to 3” per damage, or only double for Way Outta Here, limiting a 3 damage to 24 or 27” (Still a lot, but perhaps still on the table.)

I think it's reasonable to reduce it to double. I've thought about this a few times and held off, but I am playing some games today, and I'll reduce it to double and see how it goes.

Should Knockback Always be optional? Perhaps if you roll 2 or more Sixes the opponent is knocked back whether you wanted to or not!

Yes. I like it as optional. I like the fact you tactically choose to pound someone into the ground or knock him away. This is a departure from SuperSystem that I prefer.

Rules state characters knocked through objects suffer no additional damage. But if Batman knocks Joker into a brick wall, he’s not going through it, so what additional damage is done? Need to address this.

I disagree. This is one of the things from SuperSystem that I kept. It was never a problem for me or many players in SS and it won't be here. That said, it's super easy to house rule this.

The penalty for Knockdown seems pretty minimal.  Only 2” reduction and the character can come right back with a Charge and get the +1D bonus. Consider a character who is knocked down CANNOT Charge the turn they get up, so therefore cannot get the charge bonus. They can still move normally back into melee if they have enough move after losing 2” of movement.

This is another departure from SS that I intentionally put in. I like the dynamism knockback can create, but I also like having characters to bounce back up and get back in the game.

Also, shouldn’t Super Agility reduce the chance of being knocked down? Or if there is a penalty, ignore it?

Funny you mention this. I just made this addition to Super-Agility last night.

Thanks for all the effort Scott!

You're welcome, Kim, and I do appreciate all of your feedback! You're part of making this a better game!

[fourcolorfigs]

Yeah I thought about tokens for each of the forms but decided they were too abstract and the tokens would need to convey too much info. I guess the repeated buffs that aren't powers are one way to do it but it doesn't necessarily help you remember the form (if you aren't using appropriately different minis). Maybe a quick reference including the metamorph forms and tokens for Form One, Form Two etc...?

I just numbered the forms 1 through 6 if that helps!

[fourcolorfigs]

Knockback/Knockdown thoughts:
The penalty for Knockdown seems pretty minimal.  Only 2” reduction and the character can come right back with a Charge and get the +1D bonus. Consider a character who is knocked down CANNOT Charge the turn they get up, so therefore cannot get the charge bonus. They can still move normally back into melee if they have enough move after losing 2” of movement.

One thing I did do on this was take away the +1D if you charge after getting up from being knocked down. Just an FYI!

[kimryoung]

One thing I did do on this was take away the +1D if you charge after getting up from being knocked down. Just an FYI!

That is a good fix, makes it worth knocking them back now!

Sounds good on everything else too.

Thanks

Kim

[fourcolorfigs]

Ok! Version 1.33 is now up on Box"

https://app.box.com/s/4sx2qknhb2nd4ptn8o4wrvmqd3ldgoa6


Highlights include:

-- Changes and clarifications to Re-rolls gained from powers

-- Tweak to effects of Knockback

-- Added missing 8th minor power to Blaster archetype

A few other little things I cannot remember! 

Thanks for checking it out!

[kimryoung]

Added missing 8th minor power to Blaster archetype

There is actually 9 now.

Kim

[fourcolorfigs]

There is actually 9 now.

Kim

Whoops. I fixed this!

[Christian]

There's an old thread somewhere with some custom cards I made for our Super System games. That got shelved, but hopefully these quick rules will help get some figures on the table for another try!

EDIT: Found them, interesting to see how much less there is to record now!

Plain template:


And one of my henchmen:


I will have to redo these for SMF

[MHoxie]

P.S. Have yo gotten to play any games yet? Just wondering!  

Not yet. Just been reading, making characters and rolling some dice to test things out. The knockback question came from
a mapless combat test after I found the "Shrinking" power.

[fourcolorfigs]

Not yet. Just been reading, making characters and rolling some dice to test things out. The knockback question came from
a mapless combat test after I found the "Shrinking" power.

Cool! Played two more games myself today. Feeling really good about the rules and the development.

We're getting closer to going to layout.

Very excited!

[kimryoung]

Super Club question

The math on the Super Club bonus seems off. +2 re-rolls for a small object is better than +1D for a medium object and nearly as good as a large at +2D.

From your own chart on dice averages, a charging Brick with super strength and small club gets 7D +2 re-rolls for a 5.95 average goals. If they use a medium club it’s 8D for 5.33 average goals, and for a large club its 9D for 5.98 average goals.

This doesn’t fit the comics. How about just make it +1D for small, +2D for medium and +3D for large. This will put things in perspective.

Also, objects like street signs, lamp poles, telephone poles, parking lot lights, communication towers, etc. should allow reach. For simplicity you could allow the reach to be the model size.

Example: Ox rips up a telephone pole (a medium object, 8” tall model). He can make a melee attack with 8” reach and +2 to his attack dice.

Kim

[fourcolorfigs]

Super Club question

The math on the Super Club bonus seems off. +2 re-rolls for a small object is better than +1D for a medium object and nearly as good as a large at +2D.

From your own chart on dice averages, a charging Brick with super strength and small club gets 7D +2 re-rolls for a 5.95 average goals. If they use a medium club it’s 8D for 5.33 average goals, and for a large club its 9D for 5.98 average goals.

This doesn’t fit the comics. How about just make it +1D for small, +2D for medium and +3D for large. This will put things in perspective.

Also, objects like street signs, lamp poles, telephone poles, parking lot lights, communication towers, etc. should allow reach. For simplicity you could allow the reach to be the model size.

Example: Ox rips up a telephone pole (a medium object, 8” tall model). He can make a melee attack with 8” reach and +2 to his attack dice.

Kim

I made adjustments to the Super-Clubs. Your comments made me re-look at the whole thing for SMF. Adding dice is really powerful in this system with its much smaller dice pools. Especially for the Brick, who has that killer base 6D pool.

So I re-worked the bennies as follows:

-- Small (mailbox, motorcycle) +1 Re-roll, +2” Reach
-- Medium (dumpster, sedan) +2 Re-rolls, +3” Reach
-- Large (dump truck, train car) +3 Re-rolls, +4” Reach

Measuring a model's height to calc reach is too fiddly for me. But I do like your idea that they should convey a bit of reach. So this addresses that. Is it simulationist that a large object only conveys +1" more than a medium? No. But SMF is not about that. So I think this will work better.

[fourcolorfigs]

Pic of my Marvel U-Foes:

https://www.tumblr.com/blog/supermissionforce

I'll stat them up later today!