Perry plastic union infantry for plains wars?

[summsi]

are they suitable? Even for 1870's? The difference between the muzzle loaded springfield and the trapdoor is neglectable in this scale, I think.

[Arthur]

They'd certainly work for the 1860's. If memory serves however, U.S infantry tended to abandon the cartridge box in the 1870's and use canvas ammo belts with individual cartridge loops instead.    

[Malamute]

They're suitable for Red Clouds war and the Fetterman massacre I believe?

[rebelyell2006]

Of course I see this thread while at home; my museum's library has some good books about Frontier Army uniforms.  ACW minis can work, because there was a huge surplus after the Civil War.  However, there were some important changes by the 1870s.  For starters, they switched to a 5-button blouse at one point, but they kept on changing the blouse designs, number of internal pockets, etc.  Uniform piping and sewn details are a bit different too.  If I remember correctly, they introduced double-breasted overcoats by this time.  They used kepis for the most part instead of the forage caps.  I can give the details when I get to work tomorrow.

[rebelyell2006]

The army wore strictly surplus and pre-war regular army patterns up to 1872.  At that point, they still issued surplus, but they started creating new uniforms.  The 1872 blouse was a goofy pleated jacket that was universally hated.  The 1874 blouse was a 5-button sack coat trimmed on cuff and collar.  Trim was removed in 1883.  The 1884 blouse was pretty much the same as the 1874, but they started adding three exterior pockets later that year.  In 1885, they started adding three small buttons to the lowe sleeves/cuffs of the uniform blouses.

Undershirts in 1874 were gray.  They were dark blue in 1875.  They were gray in 1876.  They were gray and collarless in 1878.  They were gray and collarless and knit in 1881.  There was a dark blue overshirt in 1881, with piping.  There was a dark blue overshirt with piping and two breast pockets in 1882.  There was a dark blue overshirt with piping and two angled breast pockets in 1883.

Vests did not change from the Civil War.

The 1872 overcoat is just Civil War pattern.  The 1873 overcoat was the mounted version, but issued to everybody.  The 1876 overcoat was the mounted version, but double-breasted.  The 1880 overcoat was the 1876 overcoat, but with branch color lining on the cape.  The 1884 overcoat was the 1880, but without the rolled double cuff.  The 1885 overcoat was the 1884, but with hooks at the bottom so the front could be pinned up, in the French style.

Soldiers sometimes wore Buffalo overcoats and canvas overcoats in really cold areas.  The "Miles" Overcoat of 1880 was dark blue cotton duck, with a cape that could be turned into a hood with a drawstring, single-breasted, and apparently unpopular.  The 1883 brown canvas overcoat, made from brown cotton duck, double-breasted, with outside hip pockets, no cuffs or trim, with a tall stand-up collar that wraps around the neck.

Trousers in 1872 were just Civil War trousers, with reinforcement for cavalry.  Trousers in 1876 were as before, but with a strap and buckle on the back, and a flared bellbottom appearance and foot strap for cavalry.  1879 trousers had an exaggerated bellbottom flaring.  1881 trousers reverted to 1872, and 1882 trousers reverted to 1879.  1884 trousers had simplified buttons and a waistband.  1885 trousers were slightly darker blue.

There were also canvas fatigues in the era: stable frocks were just pre-war fatigue coats.  The 1884 fatigue sack coat was brown cotton duck, with six buttons and two breast pockets: like the Rough Riders before they were issued the khaki after the fighting ended.  The 1884 fatigue trousers were brown cotton duck, in the infantry style but with a rear pocket.

Caps were chasseur-style kepis in 1872.  There was a black felt campaign hat in 1872, which was a floppy mess that the soldiers hated.  It was replaced in 1876 with a similar hat with smaller brim, stitched edges, and ribbons that provided stability to its shape.  The 1883 campaign hat was a drab-color felt, with brass vents at the top.  The 1889 campaign hat replaced the vents with punched holes.

[rebelyell2006]

Army branch colors changed after the Civil War too: Infantry switched to white in 1885; cavalry switched to dark yellow in 1887; light artillery switched to red in 1872; engineers switched to scarlet and white in 1872, and to scarlet piped in white in 1885; signals got orange in 1872; hospital stewards switched to emerald green in 1872; and quartermaster git buff in 1885.  Artillery and ordnance did not change.

Dye colors were inconsistent, and uniforms faded rapidly out west.

Blouses and overcoats and the 1881 shirt used brass buttons.  Stable frocks and trousers and undershirts used bright tin buttons.  Fatigue uniforms and canvas overcoats and buffalo overcoats and 1883 shirts used rubber buttons.  1881 knit shirts used pearl buttons. 

Brown canvas leggings were irregularly worn until they became regulation-issued in 1888.  Gloves and gauntlets were private purchase until 1884, when they were angora goatskin.

Chevrons for peacetime were 1/2 inch with no borders.  Chevrons on campaign were 1/2 inch with red borders, or blue or white for artillery.  In 1872 they were manufactured and issued as single-piece patches instead of individual bars.  They were worn on blouses, and unofficially on fatigue coats, and on overcoats. 

Belts either did or did not have Palmer braces, because soldiers had a habit of not liking them.  The cartridge boxes for the trapdoor Springfield was smaller than the muzzleloader belt.  They also had hand-made prairie belts with loops for bullets that were not army issue until 1876.  The Mills belt of 1880 was entirely canvas; prior belts were canvas sewn on to leather.  After 1872, haversacks were canvas, and canteen covers were canvas.  Knapsacks were canvas.  The Civil War surplus haversacks and knapsacks went bad by 1870.

[rebelyell2006]

That all was from a mixture of sources, including Lee Rutledge's books, and from observations of Frontier Army uniforms and equipment in my museum's collection, along with observations from volunteering at the local NPS site that focuses on interpreting the Frontier Army.

[rebelyell2006]

In summary, you can get away with using Perry plastic Union infantry for the Frontier Army, as long as you paint the uniform details and equipment the right colors, and either use a short kepi or a floppy campaign hat (a Civil War slouch hat, not a Hardee hat).  The only problem is the cartridge box.

[guitarheroandy]

I suspect that most soldiers bought their own slouch hats, which seems to be the way with the cavalry in most books I read. This also seems to apply to clothing for cavalrymen so I suspect it was the same for infantry.

The other question to consider is whether or not the 'little details' bother you. If you want models that are exactly right for the 1870s, they probably won't suffice. If you want blue-coated, slouch/kepi wearing infantrymen and the details don't bother you, then use the models. The latter approach is the one I take in my British Colonial forces. (If it wears a pith helmet and puttees, it'll do for 1879 to 1899 regardless of its webbing belts and make of rifle!!!) Some would call me a heretic...it bothers me not...

[rebelyell2006]

They were issued uniforms and slouch hats, perhaps not enough, but there were warehouses of gear and uniforms for issue at a set schedule based upon when they enlisted.  And I assume they could buy replacement uniforms from the quartermaster department if they wore out ahead of schedule.  On the campaign, the officers could have looked the other way on details and civilian clothing, but bored sergeants at obscure forts along the frontier made sure the stitches were correct.

[summsi]

thanks for your answers, especially to rebelyell2006!!!