Couple of varnish questions

[FramFramson]

Hi folks, it's "varnish question" time again. I have procured some Windsor & Newton acrylic varnish in both gloss & matte and am petrified about ruining minis I spent so long painting... But of course, if I don't protect them, they'll be ruined anyway, through a slow death by chips & touch-ups.

1) Some instructions for varnishing call for cutting the varnish with white spirit to achieve better, smoother flow, but uh, won't white spirit take paint off? Also I have done some small details in pen (pigma sigma micron .005, which is supposed to be of a high quality, being colour, light, smear and -supposedly - chemical proof when dry), would white spirit interact poorly with this?

2) I've heard that varnishes can dull metallics. What is your experience with this? I have some carefully feathered metallic shading on several minis that I'd hate to lose or repaint.

[Mitch K]

Do NOT thin acrylic varnish with white spirit! It won't mix.

I've never had W&N acrylic varnish lift or move acrylic paint on minis. Micron type pens are a different matter. I have noticed some colours of some brands will lift. All I can suggest is try it out on a bit of paper primed with gesso or something similar.

I use Pledge/Klear over painted minis to protect them, either sprayed (mixed with Liquitex airbrush medium) or a soft (goat/squirrel) wash brush. After this is dry I use W&N Galleria, either sprayed or brushed. Usually it takes two coats.

Sometimes I will give the mini a coat of Pledge partway through, if I'm happy with the results so far I'll varnish it so I can go back and remove later bits of painting I don't like!

Matt varnish does dull metal, but a slick of gloss over the metalwork at the very end cures this no problem.

HTH,

M

[FramFramson]

Hum, so for specifically acrylic vanrish, would I thin it with... water? I've never seen that.

To be fair, the varnish suggestions I'd seen were for Daler-Rowney, so I don't know if that's an oil based, but then I asked elsewhere and was given a horrified look when I asked about using oil varnish over acrylic paint.

Seems like everytime I search the forums or on google I find a different answer on what to do.

[warburton]

Certainly GW gloss varnish was always meant to be thinned with water.

W&N or Daler Rowney will generallyn sell a medium that may be used to thin their varnishes though I have always just used them neat to good effect.

Metal should be re-glossed after matting to give it a shine, unless you like the matted look!

Layering techniques, in my opinion, are better suited to being varnished (gloss then matted) than blending. In my opinion it brings the technique from a 'stripy' look to a cohesive whole and is an essential part of the painting process.

I have not tried much careful blending style of painting, but I have certainly read that varnishing can cover up careful blending. I remember reading somewhere that many (most) Golden Demon entries (almost always a blended style of painting) are not varnished for that reason - though I do not know the veracity of that...

[Connectamabob]

Hum, so for specifically acrylic vanrish, would I thin it with... water? I've never seen that.

To be fair, the varnish suggestions I'd seen were for Daler-Rowney, so I don't know if that's an oil based, but then I asked elsewhere and was given a horrified look when I asked about using oil varnish over acrylic paint.

Seems like everytime I search the forums or on google I find a different answer on what to do.

The general rule of thumb is to always layer different paint types in descending order according to the aggressiveness of their respective solvents.

Acrylic generally has the least aggressive solvents of the major paint types (short of straight watercolors) by a wide margin, so it should always go at the top of the stack. Acrylics are water emulsion based. They typically use ammonia or alcohol as a solvent, and will be destroyed by anything hotter. White spirits isn't usually water soluble, so it doesn't mix well as a thinner for acrylics, but it will dissolve cured acrylics, so you don't want to use it on top of acrylics.

Thin acrylics with water to be safest. Ammonia or alcohol will get you lower surface tension, but if you use too much, it'll adversely effect the paint's strength when dry. When using an acrylic as a clearcoat, water poses the least risk of damaging or lifting the colors underneath, with ammonia being the next safest.

Enamels are the next step down. These are oil based, and can't be thinned with anything that has water in it. They will be all but impervious to the standard acrylic solvents when dry, but can be dissolved by their own solvents. White spirits aka mineral spirits is the typical solvent for enamel, but turpenoid, turpentine, and lacquer thinner (in ascending order of aggressiveness) can be used too. Same cautions as above apply: if your thinner solvent is too hot, you run the risk of damaging the paint underneath your current application, so choose accordingly. For example: never thin enamel with lacquer thinner unless you're airbrushing, as lacquer thinner dissolves EVERYTHING, and is only "safe" (to paint, not to you) when aerosolized because much of it evaporates before it lands on the model.  You don't paint enamels on top of acrylics because A) the hotter solvents can soften/dissolve the acrylic, and B) residual moisture in the acrylic can adversely effect the enamels' adhesion.

Lacquers are the bottom rung. They have the hottest solvents, and are the toughest when cured. They make for durable primers, and solvent stable basecolors on which you can wet blend enamels. Do not paint them on top of other paint types unless you are spraying. Lacquer thinners evaporate lightning fast, so unlike enamels you actually can spray them safely on top of more easily dissolved paint types provided you are very careful. Never brush them over other paints though.

[Atheling]

Hum, so for specifically acrylic vanrish, would I thin it with... water? I've never seen that.

To be fair, the varnish suggestions I'd seen were for Daler-Rowney, so I don't know if that's an oil based, but then I asked elsewhere and was given a horrified look when I asked about using oil varnish over acrylic paint.

Seems like everytime I search the forums or on google I find a different answer on what to do.

Well, varnishing is the Dark Arts  .

I've cracked it though  

[Orctrader]

...To be fair, the varnish suggestions I'd seen were for Daler-Rowney...

LINK

But you have W&N acrylic.  Certainly don't thin with white spirit.

ANY varnish you have...read the label on the bottle.  Although it is likely not intended for figures there will be something about thinning.

ANY varnish you have...test it on a figure you don't care about.  Just take any figure.  Paint it.  If it's some dreadful miniature you never wanted to paint anyway, even better. 

Some bright colours, some dark colours. 

Allow the paint to "set." I leave a figure at least 24 hours after painting before varnishing.

With W&N try this.

Flat brush - good quality - never been used for painting.  Wash and allow to dry.

Your test figure.

"Dust" with big, soft brush to make sure no debris, hairs, etc.

Apply varnish, one coat, very thin, sparingly. Too little is better than too much because you can always do a second coat.

Allow to dry for at least 24 hours.  (What's the rush?  Ruined figures are ruined forever.)

Now, your test figure.  Take a good look at it.  Under the light how does it look?   

(With W&N water-based Galeria acrylic matt varnish...I don't thin it at all.  Very watery.  Not "flat" enough for me so I added matting agent.  Another story...)

[Mr. Peabody]

Connectamabob, your information covers a lot of ground, but I got the impression you were suggesting that white spirit based solvents will not work over acrylics. Please correct me if I got the wrong impression.

Thing is, I use odourless studio quality white spirit and turpentine (again studio quality) washes all the time over acrylic paint and other acrylic media (like Future/Klear floor polish) and these have never dissolved, melted or eaten into my acrylic paintwork.

I don't think varnishing is a 'dark art', but there certainly appears to be some confusion around it. Spray can matte finishes have always been a bit unpredictable, but the Vallejo matte varnish I apply via brush or airbrush has been absolutely reliable. I follow the instructions on the bottle.

[Connectamabob]

Connectamabob, your information covers a lot of ground, but I got the impression you were suggesting that white spirit based solvents will not work over acrylics. Please correct me if I got the wrong impression.

They only "don't work" in the sense that there is a higher risk of smearing the paint underneath. It won't interfere with the curing of anything. Once eveything's dried, it'll all be just as good.

Thing is, I use odourless studio quality white spirit and turpentine (again studio quality) washes all the time over acrylic paint and other acrylic media (like Future/Klear floor polish) and these have never dissolved, melted or eaten into my acrylic paintwork.

What I posted were sort of beginners general guidelines, not absolute rules. Different paint formulations will be more or less sensitive, and with the good technique you can break those guidelines with all but the most fragile of paints.

When I say "dissolve", I don't mean it'll eat the paint off or liquify it or anything like that. What I mean is it'll temporarily soften it, making it easier to smear it or contaminate other colors. If the undercolor is fully cured, there's usually little to no risk when spraying (unless you're spraying in thick wet coats, which is bad form regardless), and if you're using light strokes with a soft brush, you can be pretty safe.

With clear media undercoat (like Future/Klear) you'd never see smearing anyway even if it was happening... because it's clear. Which is hugely useful. I've known modellers who spray Future between major color stages specifically so they can strip the upper color (by solvent swabbing, not soaking) without visibly effecting the undercolor should they have to. I've used Future to buffer a Tamiya white undercoat so I could wet-blend enamels on top using turpentine (it worked BTW).

Worst incidents I've had have been with clear lacquer topcoats applied with a brush. That's extremely tricky and the one thing I'd say to avoid as a categorical rule. Only takes, like, two brush strokes at most before you're wiping colors all over the place. I've also seen clear acrylics curdle or cloud when exposed to the wrong solvent, but that seems to be more of a brand formula thing, not something that reliably applies to all acrylics with a given solvent.

[FramFramson]

Well, I certainly plan to experiment on some secondary minis before going on to do my main characters.

[Mr. Peabody]

They only "don't work" in the sense that there is a higher risk of smearing the paint underneath. It won't interfere with the curing of anything. Once eveything's dried, it'll all be just as good.

What I posted were sort of beginners general guidelines, not absolute rules. Different paint formulations will be more or less sensitive, and with the good technique you can break those guidelines with all but the most fragile of paints.

You rock. Great post and solid information. Thanks for taking the time to follow up!

[maxxon]

I've found that brush on acrylic varnishes can lift inks.

I do some detail works with technical pens (Rotring etc.) and sometimes use calligraphy inks. These will generally NOT be waterproof even when "dry" and they will smear if brush on varnish is applied on top of them.

That's one reason why I switched to spray varnishes already many years ago. Even though the solvent is harder, the spray application is less "wet" and there is no physical abrasion involved as would be when using a brush.

[Mitch K]

I've found that brush on acrylic varnishes can lift inks.

I do some detail works with technical pens (Rotring etc.) and sometimes use calligraphy inks. These will generally NOT be waterproof even when "dry" and they will smear if brush on varnish is applied on top of them.

That's one reason why I switched to spray varnishes already many years ago. Even though the solvent is harder, the spray application is less "wet" and there is no physical abrasion involved as would be when using a brush.

I've been using inks for over thirty years and I've found it a bit of a black art. Calligraphy inks are very often not in the least bit waterproof and even going near them with later layers of paint/ink will lift them, never mind varnish.

W&N spirit based drawing inks are shellac based and generally very waterproof. Alcohols will lift them, in theory, but in practice you need to really work at them quite hard and to remove them you need you need to go to organic solvents like acetone (or even stronger thinks not usually found outside laboratories...). And they're a bit hard on brushes too.

Rotring black ink is more or less bombproof. Used in the lab it seems to resist more or less anything this side of chloroform and caustic soda (neither of which I would recommend for miniature painting. Or a lot of other things )

I don't have much experience of the other colours Rotring produce as I use other things for this effect.

Acrylic inks either on brush or Rotring pen seem to vary. W&N Galleria, thinned with water and a touch of flow improver doesn't lift them, but Pledge/Kleer certainly can, although it seems to take some effort and to be slightly random. Daler-Rowney seem more resistant than Liquitex, but this is based on a survey of only a small number of colours from each range.

Pre-manufactured pens in my experience are the biggest issue, and the only way I have found to get around the problem is to try each one out before I use it in anger (also handy so I know roughly how much staining power each one has).

Well there you have it. Over thirty years of painful experience distilled to these few lines. Hope it helps someone avoid some of the holes I've fallen into

Merry meet again!

M

[Argonor]

This is a little off topic, but I got the impression from some of the above that white spirit will soften or dissolve acrylic paints.

Is that so, and can it be used to rinse painted plastic minis without any bad effects?

[Mitch K]

This is a little off topic, but I got the impression from some of the above that white spirit will soften or dissolve acrylic paints.

Is that so, and can it be used to rinse painted plastic minis without any bad effects?

I have never found that white spirit softens or dissolves acrylic paints with a rinse/wipe. It can be slightly different if you leave it to soak for a while, when it can swell the paint, giving a "crackleure" type effect.

Why would you want to rinse a painted mini?