Wargames Show Standards

[Andym]

I guess it's all personal choice and that's what I'm asking about. These are opinions i have shared with a few in my hobby circle recently. Personally I wouldn't give a table with hex tiles 2nd glance at a show but i would happyily play on it at a club night.

Welcome to the LAF,

I sometimes wonder if it’s because we are spoiled on here with all the great projects!

 I definitely find that I look forward to BLAM the most out of the wargaming calendar. The standard of games is exceptional. And I don’t just mean the display, the quality of game-ability/fun is also high!

My gauge of ‘How good a show is’ is the amount of pictures I take on the day. And of recent, that’s been few and far between!

I keep threatening to put a game on at one of these shows with my brother, but the thought of not being able to saunter about and see what else is there, has so far put me off

[Johnno]

I think the shows here in Ontario are up to IMHO a fairly high standard.

Maybe its just my standards arent set  as high as others or its the same bunch of GMs hitting the conventions whole take pride in their work.

But there are 3 different people whose display games I look out for as they look fantastic but play great too and there are usually a couple more i wish i could've played on based on display alone.

There are usually some 6mm, 10mm and 1/1200 naval games which don't do it for me but don't have problems filling seats beside them.

My scale of preference is 28mm but have played 20mm and 15mm games as the tables were stunning and the period suited my interest....and they turned out to be fantastic games too.

I've thought about running a game but am nervous it won't be as fun or look as good even though most of the gamers I know would probably appreciate seeing something new from a new GM who tried.

[bong-67]

I think part of the problem is to do with what UK wargames shows are for.  Traditionally, they mostly feature display games with a few games which are participatory.  I think display games are OK but only as long as the presenters have a clear purpose of what they want to show.  E.g. do they want to show off excellent terrain modelling skills?  Do they want to demonstrate a new set of rules or period?  Do they want to show off innovative terrain or ideas?  However, often what you see nowadays is a club putting on a game just for the sake of attending the show with no clear purpose other than turning up so the games on display show minimal effort and are just what you'd see on a club night.
Personally, I don't mind seeing hex terrain or sometimes simple terrain as long as what is being displayed is innovative.  If a hex terrain game is being displayed to demonstrate rules with area movement which actually use the hexes then that's interesting.  Sometimes minimal terrain can be effective if the game mechanisms are novel.
Personally, I'd like to see many more participation games at shows.  If a demonstration is just a static diorama or if a display game doesn't really demonstrate anything novel then I find it boring.  Wargaming for me is all about the participation and I think it is a very poor spectator sport.  In an ideal world I'd also like to see participation games with the highest visual standards but if I can play in a game then I'll cut the organisers a bit more slack as their game has to be able to deal with handling by the public.
Finally, I think part of the problem is the number of UK shows.  I think there are too many.  Fewer shows would give clubs or groups more time to concentrate on what they are presenting and the shows themselves could be more selective.  I'd rather see one really good Scottish show than the 5 or so shows we get every year, some of which are very small and not really worth attending.  It would be more of a highlight to the year and something clubs could aspire to take part in rather than feel compelled to take part in.

[jmilesr01]

Here in the states we really don't have a lot of demonstration games - almost everything is geared for participation which has it's own set of additional issues in terms of making a game thats accessible and fun for players of multiple skill levels / capabilities.  I really enjoy putting on big games at a convention and put a lot of effort into the mini's and scenery (mostly for the big summer con in the US, Historicon)

All of the HMGS con I go to seem to be on a slight downward trend maybe due to a combination of three things
1) An aging hobby
2) Less interest in the vendors given internet access.  I rarely see something new in the vendor halls
3) A rise of smaller scale "skirmish" format games, which are a lot of fun but hard to scale up for "big games"

The level of "well-produced" games seems to be holding steady as a relative measure but there are a lower number of them at a con as the attendance slowly drops.

Putting on a game requires a lot of work and is expensive.  I don't expect any cost support but anything a convention team can do to make the experience better is very much appreciated (rolling carts, easier drop-off and pick up services, good lighting etc).

We all have different preferences for scales / scenery / era's but we shouldn't dismiss anything that's new to us.  Seeing a big well done game in an period or scale I don't have is usually one of the gateway drugs for my hobby moving in a new direction!

[Malamute]

Finally, I think part of the problem is the number of UK shows.  I think there are too many.  Fewer shows would give clubs or groups more time to concentrate on what they are presenting and the shows themselves could be more selective.  I'd rather see one really good Scottish show than the 5 or so shows we get every year, some of which are very small and not really worth attending.  It would be more of a highlight to the year and something clubs could aspire to take part in rather than feel compelled to take part in.

I'm not sure traders and retailers would agree with you on that

Iain you have opened a can of worms with this topic!

There was a similar thread earlier in the year after Salute which muted a similar view. Wasn't there talk in one of the Wargames magazines saying high quality looking games were bad for the average gamer to aspire to? 

Be careful or you'll end up being called an Elitist

[blacksoilbill]

Sadly in Australia (or at least my part thereof), it's all about tournaments. Display or participation games are the rarity. Mind you, some of the comp games look pretty good. Seldom a big 'wow' factor though.

[bong-67]

Some traders have been complaining of poor trading and poor attendance at some shows recently and some of them have actually proposed fewer but bigger and better UK shows.
One of the biggest issues behind what we are seeing at UK wargames shows is time and motivation.  Most club members don't have a lot of time for painting and modelling and don't want to give it to clubs for display games at shows so we see games which are put together quickly.

[Eric the Shed]

Oh yeah, traders are made of money  

Dags apologies if I upset you...

My comment was more about 'rewarding' the best tables. Aside from Salute I typically attend the like of Warfare, Colours, & Selwg each year. Entrance fees tend to be around the £5 mark and I assume that all of this gets sunk into the room hire with the balance made up by the trader fees. Adding an extra pound per punter and directing this to the demonstrators could be a viable way of improving quality.

Am I right in assuming demonstrators get expenses paid at the very least?

The hobby does in my mind need to reinvent itself when it comes to the shows - they should in my mind tick a number of boxes

1. An option to buy stuff - specifically a showcase for new products and services (are new traders incentivised to participate or is space so tight the previous years traders get in first)
2. A catalyst for new entrants to the hobby
3. A source of inspiration for both new and existing gamers

The demo and participation games should be aiming to meet these goals - I have no issue with trader sponsored games
 
Most shows seem to attract the same types of folks over and over again...are organisers prepared to give tickets away to local schools, scout groups etc to draw in a new audience?

Many business exhibitions and trade shows I attend have presentations/lectures - could organisers not do this? I'd be fascinated to attend presentations by the current crop of new wargames designers, terrain builders and 'hobby' personalities.

   
 

[Dags]

Dags apologies if I upset you...

Don't be daft, nowt to apologise for

Typically, it is trade that pays for the venue and the punters that make the profit for the 'organisers' - most places require money up front so we're paying for next year's events already.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing bad about an event making a profit; to pay for club activities in the coming year or, simply, to take the volunteers out for a meal once the show is done. It's bloody hard work properly organising a show.

AFAIK most shows don't pay expenses to demo/club gamers - where we have a demo game attached to us we make sure ourselves that our demoers are looked after.

There is a solid argument that there are too many shows; One 'good' show per month rather than lots of 'average' ones. In October and November I'll get 2 weekends off (and there are/were shows on those dates)

If smaller shows are to survive the 'organisers' need to have a serious look at what they're doing; major promotion both online and in print, encouraging quality games - both demo and participation, thinking about the trade make up; less resellers and more manufacturers et cetera, et cetera

[Von Trinkenessen]

Am I right in assuming demonstrators get expenses paid at the very least?

In 40 years of doing both demo and participation games the most I've ever got was free figure/mug/ tea & coffee vouchers/beer mats.
Never once has there been any mention of expenses.

Excluding the procurement of special items for the game, the cost of travel and transport ,accommodation , parking, tolls, food and drink, medication to deal with headaches caused by poor lighting, bribery of spouses etc means that it is an expensive part of the hobby that not all of us are prepared to spend our hard earned cash on.

I also despair at some of the games at shows; badly painted figures /great terrain, great painted figures /bad terrain, bored unapproachable orks (gamers) running ? a game, a boring game (subjective), gamers with a personal freshness issue combined with the stench of resin and glue.

If you put on a game at a show you must be prepared to engage with visitors .  

[Eric the Shed]

In 40 years of doing both demo and participation games the most I've ever got was free figure/mug/ tea & coffee vouchers/beer mats.
Never once has there been any mention of expenses.

I am genuinely shocked that expenses for demonstrators are not covered

[Dags]

There's an old joke in the trade; how do you make a million from wargaming? Start with 2 million

[levied troop]

I’m not sure what the demand is to put on a game at a show - do show organisers get overwhelmed with requests to put on a game?

I’ve been part of a small team (3/4 people) putting on games at shows for what will be 30 years in 2018.It’s certainly hard work (cue laughter from the traders  ), apart from creating the game in the first place, getting in early, setting up, packing away - I’ve seen a couple of 18 hour days doing shows.  Personally I’ve quite enjoyed it - have you?

A couple of our games are on LAF, by way of judging standards:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=103203.0

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=61298.60

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=83456.0

Feedback genuinely welcome if you've seen us at shows.

I think we engage with visitors, come near our table and we’ll talk to you whether you want it or not.  There’s a balance to be had between showing the game, talking in more detail and actually playing the game - I’d say we rarely get the chance to finish a demo game because of the interaction but we do try and show it being played and not just have it as a static diorama.  That said, we do occasionally need to stop all action to shop or,  increasingly with age, get a loo break , but we’ll leave someone on the table to talk.

We’ve done participation games as well - but I wonder about the style.  Personally I think such games benefit from simple fast and furious rules and a game that can be over in an hour or less.  I get the impression that US shows use full commercial rule sets and last a lot longer - do people want to invest 3-4 hours playing 1 game at a show (and what happens to the demonstrators if nobody wants to)?  Is there scope for booking seats at a table in advance via t’web?

Same game time after time?  Yes I’ve seen some examples of that, but again it’s possibly down to the sheer expense and time to create a game.  We make sure 1 game last no more than a year  (always a different one for Partizan 2) and in some years we’ve done 4 different games in a single year.  We have some advantages perhaps, we have more time and effort to spare I’d guess, but these days for us it’s 2 people building the game.  Even in large clubs the ‘club’ game might be down to 2 people doing most/all of the work and if a club does manage to engage 8-10 members building it then its likely that presentation standards of terrain and figures might vary considerably - on the other hand it’s achieved more engagement in the club/hobby and individual standards may rise over time so can we really say thats a bad thing?

There are clearly some really excellent games out there (BLAM certainly provides examples) that haven’t been near a public show as far as I’m aware - although since I’m usually demoing I don’t get to see all of most shows I attend so I might be wrong.  If so, why is that?  Is there something that can be done to attract them to shows?

Expenses?     I must have spent tens of thousands (cue applause from traders!) over the last 29 years putting games on and got expenses once (thank you Tower of London).  But I wouldn’t look for them personally, I can afford to be indulgent in the hobby.  But it might attract others?

Trophies?  Won a few but don’t go looking for them.  What is good to get is organiser feedback (Bovington were excellent in this respect - sadly we can’t get there at the moment  due to time pressures but that may change) and feedback from the public.  So if you like a show game, say so.  Better yet, tell the organisers - perhaps some form of formal voting from show attendees can be offered (I think both SELWG and Bovington have done this, particularly in regard to trophies).

This does raise the question of what is ‘best’?  Do we have a clearly defined idea of what a quality show game might be - is it broadly agreed?  I think we could probably come up with a list, there’s some ideas here already, but having created it, what do we do with it? If it is only Rolls Royce sculptured terrain and professionally painted 28mm figures, how many show games will there be and will show attendance be the same?  Do organisers apply some quality judgement in their invitations? Which comes back to my original question, do show organisers get overwhelmed with requests to put on a game?


One thing I strongly disagree with the OP on is personal prejudice.  I don’t game 10mm or hex-based, but I’d like to see good examples at shows, it might encourage me to try it or steal ideas.  A show that consisted entirely of games I like would be quite boring - I want to see different things.

Apologies - that's quite a screed, but the OP raises some interesting points.

LT
Ex-SEEMS
Now League of Gentlemen Anti-Alchemists

[Lowtardog]

I can only speak personally, but I do not spend too much time looking at demo games even though put on a few in the distant past. Nowadays I prefer to have a bimble around the traders a chin wag and then bugger off. Salute which I am going to next year, the first time for 9 years is more of an outing catch up than looking at a game or products, but would be more of the exception as I can see everything online whether from concept of rules, models to sales and examples of play at my own leisure and in more detail than if fighting crowds and time at a show.

not overly fussed on participation but that is more around my choice and can see the appeal. I think events such as campaigns, the round robins etc or indeed something like BLAM do appeal which is a gathering of like minded people.

As to recruiting for clubs, there cannot be a huge number who only get recruits t shows (I think it could equally put people off) certainly with the advent of websites, forums and social media that has to be the route for recruitment surely than banging the drum hoping locals will take the schilling 

[levied troop]

Those two things are not necessarily connected