AWI 40mm gaming anyone ? Updated

[Lysandros]

Sounds to me like if this is something like the response, there is something else at work besides that the range doesnt sell.

Interesting , please tell us your theory ?
Cheers

[Lysandros]

Glad to see progress though I am bemused that you have two beautifully painted units that you don't like to use because of the sculpts.  I find that once a game is underway, the players rarely pay attention to the specifics of the figures - other than their identity and capabilities within the game.  Seems rather a luxury.  But, heck, they are yours.

Not all that surprised that 40 mm hasn't gained traction though somewhat disappointed.  As gamers age,  such figures will work better for those with diminished eyesight.  Alas, may of the sculptors are going to be in the same boat as they age.  Maybe I need to start buying the figures now just in case! 

Where have you sourced your civilian figures?  (Civilians and animals decorating a game is really important to me - too often gaming battlefields are rather anti-septic environments compared to the real world - painting time and budgets impact, no doubt.)

Again, a beautiful collection and love the terrain.

Gaming for me is the overall look. If anything doesn't look right in my book it will nag me. So a game  no matter how good would lose its flavour. I like every element of the game figures and terrain to achieve the highest quality that I can do. I agree it's a form of madness . Personally I will overlook any game if terrain and figures don't work in harmony. I love the scratch built modelling element of the hobby which over the years I feel has taken a backseat to a generic commercial formula no matter how good.

40mm has been a total commercial flop. I understand it's just not practical for most people . Perry 40 , FR , Gringos 40 ranges are all incomplete in 40mm.
Cost wise they are double or triple if you regard plastics. There is no legacy of this scale in the modern era. Gamers can be reactionary , conservative , change is hard , expensive.
I'm very very very lucky that l have a barn away from the main farmhouse . This is a perfect bloke bolt hole,
Gym , sofas , vinyl collection , guitars , sports channels, cases of robust wine , IPA ,  and a 19ft by 7ft terrain set up. Really to do 40mm justice you need lots of space and understandably most don't have this luxury of space .
 Size of fig for painting with diminishing eye sight l don't think is a factor as it has not worked in sells.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers.

[Lysandros]

Smallwood's Marylanders

[jambo1]

They have turned out very well indeed, great work on them.

[MiniPigs]

Gaming for me is the overall look. If anything doesn't look right in my book it will nag me. So a game  no matter how good would lose its flavour. I like every element of the game figures and terrain to achieve the highest quality that I can do. I agree it's a form of madness . Personally I will overlook any game if terrain and figures don't work in harmony. I love the scratch built modelling element of the hobby which over the years I feel has taken a backseat to a generic commercial formula no matter how good.

40mm has been a total commercial flop. I understand it's just not practical for most people . Perry 40 , FR , Gringos 40 ranges are all incomplete in 40mm.
Cost wise they are double or triple if you regard plastics. There is no legacy of this scale in the modern era. Gamers can be reactionary , conservative , change is hard , expensive.
I'm very very very lucky that l have a barn away from the main farmhouse . This is a perfect bloke bolt hole,
Gym , sofas , vinyl collection , guitars , sports channels, cases of robust wine , IPA ,  and a 19ft by 7ft terrain set up. Really to do 40mm justice you need lots of space and understandably most don't have this luxury of space .
 Size of fig for painting with diminishing eye sight l don't think is a factor as it has not worked in sells.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers.

I took a look at some of these companies. Perry do a lot of 28mm ranges that I have a hard time believing are commercial successes. I have no idea what Gringo40s is doing but their 40mm pricing is almost certainly going to eclipse sales. Sash and Sabre look to have thrown 40mm spaghetti against the wargaming wall with a lot of ranges left incomplete which looks a little sloppy.

Having said that, it could be that 18mm and 28mm suck the life out of other scales. It could also be that gamers suffer from OCD (Want everything to always match in terms of size and scale), hoarding (Collections of thousands of figures in a period which they can never hope to use), resale value (Who will buy my unit when I grow tired of the hobby or need money?) or are conformist and looking for acceptance from other gamers. Plus, most new entrants into 40mm have to paint up BOTH armies which automatically doubles effort, cost etc. Additionally, as you mentioned, there is the unit cost, especially of cavalry, not to mention the intimidation of painting larger figures which were originally intended for dioramas. Finally, the manufacturers of 40mm really dont advertise, promote or give examples of why 40mm is appealing as a scale. When you weight these factors, it doesnt seem that 40mm is a commercial flop but rather that it is astounding that it has had any sticking power at all.

But, part of the attraction of 40mm might be that it is a collector's scale which is also suitable for wargaming. I suppose it is incumbent on enthusiasts to figure out how to get vanity projects sculpted and produced. If a sculptor who is familiar with their own scale and creation is offered to be compensated for their time and expenses (especially if there are no competing opportunity costs), then they should be willing to produce whatever is asked of them. Any other response is one based in something other than market concerns. What those idiosyncratic concerns are, I haven't a clue.

[Lysandros]

Hessian Grenadier brigade

[Lysandros]

Pennsylvania campaign game this weekend.
1) continental battle line
2) Deleware and Maryland veteran brigade advance
3) militia cavalry and  light dragoons cavalry guard flank.

[DintheDin]

Real eye candies! 

[Alan Mercer]

The more I see of your collection the more it inspires me to move my 40mm collections forward. So I have ordered piles of stuff!

[ian220756]

I took a look at some of these companies. Perry do a lot of 28mm ranges that I have a hard time believing are commercial successes. I have no idea what Gringo40s is doing but their 40mm pricing is almost certainly going to eclipse sales. Sash and Sabre look to have thrown 40mm spaghetti against the wargaming wall with a lot of ranges left incomplete which looks a little sloppy.

Having said that, it could be that 18mm and 28mm suck the life out of other scales. It could also be that gamers suffer from OCD (Want everything to always match in terms of size and scale), hoarding (Collections of thousands of figures in a period which they can never hope to use), resale value (Who will buy my unit when I grow tired of the hobby or need money?) or are conformist and looking for acceptance from other gamers. Plus, most new entrants into 40mm have to paint up BOTH armies which automatically doubles effort, cost etc. Additionally, as you mentioned, there is the unit cost, especially of cavalry, not to mention the intimidation of painting larger figures which were originally intended for dioramas. Finally, the manufacturers of 40mm really dont advertise, promote or give examples of why 40mm is appealing as a scale. When you weight these factors, it doesnt seem that 40mm is a commercial flop but rather that it is astounding that it has had any sticking power at all.

But, part of the attraction of 40mm might be that it is a collector's scale which is also suitable for wargaming. I suppose it is incumbent on enthusiasts to figure out how to get vanity projects sculpted and produced. If a sculptor who is familiar with their own scale and creation is offered to be compensated for their time and expenses (especially if there are no competing opportunity costs), then they should be willing to produce whatever is asked of them. Any other response is one based in something other than market concerns. What those idiosyncratic concerns are, I haven't a clue.

Interesting debate - there is no doubt that you need reasonably deep pockets ( or diverting of funds required for non essentials - food , mortgage etc to do 40mm in quantity - but to put things in to perspective I’ve spent approx £20k on this obsession over the last 15 years - I’ve got friends who have lost that in a year as their car depreciates . You’re right our choice is limited which means we have to create more ourselves with conversions and private commissions - is that more satisfying artistically than choosing from hundreds of codes in 28mm and then picking up your brush - there have been many times I’ve envied the 28mm gamer - Avanpost have started a range of Napoleonics and already offer more variants than the entire 40mm Napoleonic ranges - and then add on Perry , Front Rank etc - not to mention the fantastic plastic ranges out there - we didn’t stand a chance !
Ian

[FifteensAway]

Here's a thought:

Limited choice is better than being spoiled for choice.  Are we happier now with gaming than 40 years ago when the choices were a fraction of what they are today?  It is easier to collect now but look at how many have collected beyond our means to ever complete what we've bought (I am very guilty).  If the choices were more limited, perhaps we would buy less and paint more - and play more and thus be more satisfied.  Lysandros seems to have done a good job on his collection - perhaps that is a factor of limits?  Or, maybe he has hidden piles yet to be spoken of! 

[schoey]

Excellent pictures from a wonderful collection.

Having a limited choice of figures has its benefits, also converting figures is quite rewarding.

[wds0855]

I am also a fan of 40mm figures. Yours all look really excellent!!

[FlyXwire]

It's a great debate (scale vs. availability choices) - there's also a number of related elements that are connected to it too (gaming area required/transportability ease).....

Still, these 40s done so well, and presented so well are undeniable.....there's gents who buy pre-painted 54s and game magnificently with them too.

I'm not convinced artful beauty means gaming excellence though, but there's no denying the visual impact that size, and that superb attention to detail will generally exude - a quantity all on its own.

Unrelated, but a friend once pointed out that we can spend [expect] countless hours in painting-prepping our game collections and doing terrain construction for these presentations, in anticipation of precious gaming moments, and then perhaps set aside a handful of hours to get this other aspect of the hobby completed.

I'm greatly enjoying while being confined from this latter joy of wargaming, that there's such wonderful sights to be seen - as in this thread.

[MiniPigs]

No matter how much choice there is, there will always be something missing. Someone, somewhere will want figures with or without gaiters or with or without lace details etc.  I have seen collectors with thousands and thousands of Napoleonic figures still lament not having some unit in some special uniform. Some of these details really aren't important outside of the imagination of the collector's peace of mind.

It is true that sometimes too much choice interferes with the collector's imagination. From an aesthetic point of view, every figure in a different physical pose can be as disturbing as everyone in the same pose.  Even for irregulars, too much variety can cause visual anxiety. I personally like a little bit of pose differentiation to create flow but I am not generally interested in a unit possessing either all one position or almost all different positions. This is because I like small "unit" actions as opposed to individual skirmish characters.

Who can focus on a good paint job if their eye is busy taking in the confusion of the unit's physical poses? It is true that there is the option of conversions but aside from that, some scarcity can be endearing and force both thought and planning in how to assemble and present units.

Back, to conversions. You may not be able to convert and if you are not skilled at this, it can prove expensive. Further, if you get figures painted by others, conversions can prove risky. Some figures cannot be created at all or require too much time to convert. Also, some conversion only take a new head set and a manufacturer can easily make those if they want too.

Some of the criticisms here aren't about choices but about aesthetics. I agree that the Sash and Sabre 40mm AWI are generally too crude for the period (Although very nice for both the ACW and Napoleonic campaign looks) and I personally am not a huge fan of the Trident figures which can suffer fro  some design and anatomy issues. Even Front Rank suffers from enormous and sometimes somewhat "stiff" horse poses.

How much this all matters resides in the heart of the collector but it may just be the concern of idle neurosis. For instance, before I got involved in 18mm, I read all the comparisons and reviews about what style and maker synced with which other maker etc. The amount of typing that goes on about this is astounding. It seems like whenever someone is going to start a new army in say Republican Romans, the first move is to find out everything that exists in terms of miniatures and then start to parse it down to which makers work in sympathy to each other. The anxiety and worry over this is truly terrifying. However, after going through these endless Internet comparisons with a recent renaissance army in 28mm and seeing that after they are all painted and based, it is almost completely unnoticeable, I care less about this than I did. Now, really, the only thing I find to be an issue is whether the miniatures lend themselves up to unit basing for wargaming.