Austro-Hungarian POW uniforms?

[Altius]

Hi guys! First post! 

I'm about halfway through reading Setting the East Ablaze by Hopkirk. In it, he makes several mentions of Austro-Hungarian prisoners, who seem to have been fairly common in the area around Tashkent. Sometimes these men were pressed into service for either side in the RCW.

I'm just wondering how you might model these for the tabletop. What uniform would they have worn? Hopkirk mentions them in "blue-grey uniforms". Would the prisoners be wearing their standard Austro-Hungarian fatigues, Russian army uniforms, or some type of standard prison-issue uniforms?

Thanks in advance.

[Doomhippie]

I don't think there has ever been anything like a standard issue POW uniform. As far as I know POWs wear their service uniforms. Troops used as mercenaries or even press-ganged into the RCW might have worn their old uniforms, maybe new ones given to them by their new commanders or maybe even captured uniforms. In civil wars the question of uniforms tend to be a little less important, I guess.

[Cory]

Adam posted a picture of some Austro-Hungarian POWs in this thread; http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=12310.0

[Adam]

Altius, I seem to remember a reference to some German (not Austrian) former POW's in the book, Mission to Tashkent. In it the author says that while witnessing a parade in Tashkent a more 'elite' Red Army unit passed by made up of disciplined German ex-POW's dressed entirely in black leather uniforms. In the year that he was writing I don't think they had the wierd pointy hat thingymajig (my knowledge of RCW uniforms is unsurpassed) so I'm guessing they just had the caps. I'm thinking of starting the same period and place as yourself and was thinking of using copplestone Red Army infantry in caps painted black for this obscure but interesting unit.


Of course it's been a while since I read that book so I might be completely mistaken about the uniforms. (And might well have revealed that I have black leather clad men in black leather caps on my mind   )




Edit: does anybody have a copy of the book that they could check?

[Poliorketes]

I'd recommend using kuk-Minis. Of course in transoxania they wouldn't have used kuk-weaponry, but who cares? If you go by the book you'll have several factions dressed in different combinations of russian uniforms (e.g. the Czech legions only regular mark of distinction was the different badge), that would be rather silly for pulpish BoB-scenarios. So add some variation and use austrian minis for austrian POWs.

[Doc Twilight]

Hi guys! First post! 

I'm about halfway through reading Setting the East Ablaze by Hopkirk. In it, he makes several mentions of Austro-Hungarian prisoners, who seem to have been fairly common in the area around Tashkent. Sometimes these men were pressed into service for either side in the RCW.

I'm just wondering how you might model these for the tabletop. What uniform would they have worn? Hopkirk mentions them in "blue-grey uniforms". Would the prisoners be wearing their standard Austro-Hungarian fatigues, Russian army uniforms, or some type of standard prison-issue uniforms?

Thanks in advance.

The Blue Grey uniforms he's referring to are "Pike Grey" uniforms, which were worn by the Austrians officially until 1916, and then by some units even until the end of the war. It (Pike Grey) came in a variety of shades of "blue grey" ranging from very blue to almost stone grey. Many Austro-Hungarian POWs would have been taken prior to 1917, so the fact that some of them were in blue grey does make some sense. I don't know how long they would have lasted, especially if they were the only uniform available, but early war uniforms in WW1, just as in WW2, tended to be made from higher quality, more durable materials. At any rate, some of my uncles who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1 had bits and pieces of their pike grey kit for decades after the war, so it is possible, I guess, that such things would have survived, even under harsh conditions. They might be tattered, but...

-Doc

[Adam]

At any rate, some of my uncles who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1 had bits and pieces of their pike grey kit for decades after the war, so it is possible, I guess, that such things would have survived, even under harsh conditions. They might be tattered, but...

-Doc

It's worth noting that in the same book, Mission to Tashkent, the author says that the Austro-Hungarian prisoners were desperate to find some form of employment and that a cafe band made up of POWs are dressed smartly in their Austrian uniforms. Later on in the book I think the author escapes disguised as an Austrian POW, indicating that they were quite readily identifiable so must still have had some of their own clothing. It has been ages since I read the book so I might be talking rubbish, though.

[Adam]

Also, I think it's worth noting that the Austro-Hungarians in the other thread were used as labour to build railways and it seems likely that their uniforms would have worn out more quickly than the prisoners in Tashkent who were, I believe, put there less as a labour force and more because it was in the back of beyond and they could be left there with less security.

In effect, whether you choose Austrian looking or Russian looking former POWs a case can be made for both. Brigade's new Austrians are lovely though aren't they?

[Ignatieff]

Hopkirk makes ready mention of Austrian uniforms, which would have survived easily if they were not fighting (which they were not till later).  The Osprey books on Austro-Hugarian armies give a comprehensive set of references, and are highly recommended.  Any Austro-Hungarian figures would therefore do, with a mix of pike -grey and Russian drab. My own figures are the now discontinued HLBS range, which were very good. 

[Mark Plant]

Recall that these prisoners had no other clothing. Clothes last quite a long time if you aren't wearing them, but not quite so long if that is all you have, day and night, for three years.

The Reds fielded quite a few Austrian and Hungarian units, while the bulk of the Czechs and Serbs went White. The Ruthenians went over to the new Ukrainian governments. You can't really talk about the units being Austro-Hungarian -- they were one specific group or another.

If recruited from prisoners they would have to be supplied with Russian equipment, which means using Russian figures. By all means paint the odd bit in Austrian, but using Austrian figures is way off. Even if they had been in the old kit, it would be an enormous mish-mash of different eras and types, since prisoners weren't all from discrete units, but jumbled around. That picture of the Austrian prisoners (quoted above) shows the variety involved, and that is much earlier, so it would only have got much worse.

In fact getting rid of their lousy (literally) clothing and getting real food was the prime draw of recruitment.

There were some small units recruited directly from the KuK army in the Ukraine. They presumably kept their kit intact. Unlikely to make it to the East, and it seems most disbanded pretty quickly.

Later on in the book I think the author escapes disguised as an Austrian POW, indicating that they were quite readily identifiable so must still have had some of their own clothing. 

But note that he cannot pass as a Red wearing this outfit.     

Late he changes to "a black leather suit such as most Russians wore in winter" because the Austrian kit wasn't up to the winter conditions.                     

[sukhe_bator]

I agree with the comments on the longevity of uniforms. Even as a POW, poor conditions etc. would have soon rendered any clothing as unusable. The best option for gaming purposes would be to possibly sprinkle a variety of uniformed figs in with a majority of Russian equipped troops for effect. Painting a variety of shades of cloth would also add to the mixed effect.
A number of Great Game operatives managed to escape from Soviet clutches by posing as various Central European nationalities, suggesting that the appearance of these POWs may have been more garbled than it would first appear from reading the accounts.   

[Poliorketes]

AFAIK the escapees used austrian-hungarian papers to disguise themselves as austro-hungarians. The clothing must have been secondary, for reasons mentionend above.

[zebra55]

Hello,

  is there any documented  evidence of  these prisoners  fighting for the  Bolsheviks or  perhaps   as more "independent" units in the Russian archives ?

Ken.

[Von Stroheim]

This French graphic novel( about the Czech legions odyssey)uses artistic licence to portray the Central Power  POW's in a mixture of clothing.

http://www.futuropolis.fr/fiche_titre.php?id_article=790176

I intended to use some Renegade Austrian heads and German soft caps on Copplestone Bolshevik bodies but Renegade seems to be on some hiatus

[Mark Plant]

Hello,

  is there any documented  evidence of  these prisoners  fighting for the  Bolsheviks or  perhaps   as more "independent" units in the Russian archives ?

I don't understand the question. There's no doubt Austro-Hungarians fought in very large numbers for the Bolsheviks, and were often their best soldiers. They did have a tendency to go home, once WWI was definitively ended.

They did however fight in ethnic units, so they would be Austrian, or Hungarian. As noted above the Serbs, Croats, Poles, Czechs and Slovaks fought mainly for the Whites (again in ethnic units).