CapnJim's Modern Stuff - Balczaki-Soviet Bridge Fight Full AAR - Pg 54-10 Aug 25

[CapnJim]

Thanks, Rick.  I appreciate that.

Besides, the members of my gaming group would actually have to hit an armored vehicle with a Molotov for any of this to be remotely relevant.  An accomplishment as yet not done....

[Rick]

Thanks, Rick.  I appreciate that.

Besides, the members of my gaming group would actually have to hit an armored vehicle with a Molotov for any of this to be remotely relevant.  An accomplishment as yet not done....

Ah, they're probably not doing it right. 
Tell them all they have to do is go up to the tank, tie a bungee cord to the engine deck, then walk back to the molotov's, stretching it out as they go. Then, simply tie the other end of the bungee to the molotov, light it and let go. Now what could be easier than that! 

[cuprum]

This thing on Soviet equipment was called "Anti-nuclear protection system" (PAZ), part of it was "Filter-ventilation unit" (FVU). The principle of operation is to create excess pressure inside the vehicle body to prevent radioactive dust from penetrating into it in contaminated areas. It began to be installed on Soviet military equipment in 1957. The first tank where it was installed was the T-55, the first BTR-60. And then even previously produced models were equipped with it (I don't know in what quantities), for example the BTR-40B. And most of the subsequent equipment - of course.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090307205118/http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jnbc/jnbc0734.html

[Rick]

This thing on Soviet equipment was called "Anti-nuclear protection system" (PAZ), part of it was "Filter-ventilation unit" (FVU). The principle of operation is to create excess pressure inside the vehicle body to prevent radioactive dust from penetrating into it in contaminated areas. It began to be installed on Soviet military equipment in 1957. The first tank where it was installed was the T-55, the first BTR-60. And then even previously produced models were equipped with it (I don't know in what quantities), for example the BTR-40B. And most of the subsequent equipment - of course.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090307205118/http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jnbc/jnbc0734.html

I'm sure you're correct cuprum but it still has nothing to do with what I'd originally mentioned. We are talking at cross-purposes so shall we just drop it, perhaps?

[cuprum]

Yes, sure.

[carlos marighela]

In fact it has, but not in the way you intended. In the older Soviet tanks with a single fire supression system, the fire doesn't have to penetrate the tank - a fire on the engine deck was often enough to set off the fire supression system which filled the tank with CO2 (more recently, Halon - but that's usually in tanks with seperate engine/crew compartment systems), causing the crew to bail out. Even the US Army and the Mujaheddin were aware of that trick.

What we have is someone relying on an old shibboleth without an understanding of how fire suppression systems work.

Automatic AFV fire suppression systems trigger when the detectors pick up a significant enough heat spike. The older systems were wholly reliant on this, newer ones backed it up with optical sensors.  Those optical sensors detect the IR signature of a flame. Automatic fire suppression systems have been around for a long time and when I say a long time in the Soviet case I mean since at least the early 1970s when the ZETS 13-1 sytem came into service. These were in service in T-72s, T-64s and T-80s. In later years they also were modified to the optical sensors. IIRC even T-55s and T-62s had earlier systems as well.

Most systems also have a manual trigger but the default setting is automatic, since the main threat is the jet of a HEAT round or superheated spalling from an APDFS hit.

The thing is that these systems and their associated sensors are located inside the tank typically in both the crew compartment and the engine bay. So in the first place the heat source has to be apparent and meaty enough within the vehicle to trigger and furthermore has to be sufficiently hot to trigger the system.  Think about this. Soviet armour was routinely fitted with ERA blocks from the early/mid 1980s. If the automatic fire suppression system was triggered by external heat sources then surely it would have triggered each time an ERA brick detonated as each would produce a much more intense heat spike than a bottle of petrol or kerosene.

Neither of these triggering factors is likely to be occasioned by a flaming bottle of petrol landing on the exterior of a vehicle. Unless it enters the confines of the vehicle through a hatch or vent, it's not going to trigger the fire suppression system. A slightly more likely and I do mean slightly more likely scenario would be burning fuel entering the engine compartment. That said, if it does, the engine is cut off first and any release of halon gas is going to be limited to the engine bay. Highly unlikely to cause anyone to bail out. Halon is an unpleasant thing to be exposed to but unless the crew compartment has been penetrated it's not going to be an immediate issue.

Now, are you more likely to bail out cos the engine has cut out or are you just going to attempt to restart the engine after the fire suppression system has done its job? I suspect that if Soviet crews were indeed  bailing out because of an engine fire and what happened next it was more an issue of poor training than physics or actual likely harm.  Hitting the external fuel panniers or auxiliary drums will not cause fire to spread into the engine bay btw. The internal plumbing is designed to defeat that, and typically the Soviets were trained to empty, the auxiliary drums before entering the combat zone. That said, crew bailing because of temporary mobility hits are not unknown, it's just that they usually ocur because that temporary loss of mobility pressages an increased chance of an AT round penetrating a sitting target.

To make this easier to understand ask yourself the following: Does your fire alarm go off in the kitchen every time you light the barbecue in the back garden?  Do you immediately bolt out of the house if it does? Probably not unless you are living in the kid's tree house. 

Now, Cuprum's contribution on the PAZ system is relevant because most post war AFV's are well sealed unless their hatches are open and overpressure systems designed for NBC warfare effectively  double down on that.

The point, in case in needs labouring (apparently it does), about Saracen's and Pigs surviving molotov hits is pretty simple. These were old vehicles, absent NBC overpressure systems, that proved largely impervious to molotov cocktails. Now apply that to vehicles with an array of defences against such threats.

Worth noting that in Afghanistan between 1979 and 1989 the Soviets lost slightly under 150 T-62s all up. Pretty much all lost to IEDs, mines or penetrating hits from various HEAT weapons plus the odd one demolished to prevent capture. If the Muj had a secret weapon they don't seem to have used it very often. Still, why let that stand in the way of a good story.

Right said my piece. Back to Balzaickistan!

[cuprum]

We found out that a bottle of gasoline is a poor weapon against a tank. Much better - a shkhid-mobile, stuffed with dynamite or something cooler...
BalchkiSTAN...STAN means a Muslim country.



https://postimg.cc/PvYpfQT0

[Rick]

Sure, cuprum, just like Indonesia, Nigeria and Bangladesh, eh? 
The suffix 'stan' is Persian and means 'land /place of' and probably means that the country is trying to invent or reinforce a connection to the (historical) muslim Persian empire. It probably means that the people of Balchakistan have lofty ambitions or a much higher than normal amount of pride in their country. Any intel officer worth his salt would include that nugget in a package as a warning to be careful when dealing with the (probably touchy) inhabitants. 

[cuprum]

I did not understand your claim ... I did not say that this is an obligatory attribute for Muslim countries, I said that this feature has no name, where another denomination prevails.
So, it is quite possible, besides the fact that there are problems between local residents and Russians in Balchistan, there is also a religious conflict? So, in my opinion, the reading will be even more exciting 

[Rick]

Cuprum - the first part was intended as a joke, just to lighten the mood somewhat. The second part has very little to do with religion and a lot to do with history and sensitive pride.

[cuprum]

Ok

[carlos marighela]

Well, there's always Accrington Stanley. I've no idea what faith they profess but clearly none of their prayers have ever been asnswered. Ditto for the pilgrims of Stansted. 

[CapnJim]

Okay.  While things are heating up in Balczakistan (the next game - "The Empire Strikes back" - is set for Friday, 08 August), we're gonna go back 2 years to the Summer of 1988.  Painting-wise, we'll be preparing for the US-led intervention in El Perdomo (Operation Righteous Thunder).  While some of the troops are ready, many are not.  First of these is the rest of my Central American Policia.  They are 28mm, of course, and are from Brigade Games' DrugWarZ Kickstarter from a number of years ago.  I've had 7 of them painted up from quite some time now, and these chaps have seen action already.  I have a couple patrol cars for them, as well.



I've now painted up the other 8.  They started life with slotta-bases - which I don't particularly care for.  So I removed the tab, cleaned up their feet, and mounted them on 25mm plastic bases.  Here are the Uzi-armed fellas, with a guy with a shotgun (and a cigar I added... ).




Here are dudes with (from left to right) a G3 (or maybe a CETME), a BAR, and M1 carbines.




Here are the 8 newly-painted guys all together.



These 15 men will be La Policia Federal del Perdomo.  On whose side they end up on remains to be seen...

Next up are 16 guys, all Congo Crisis Mercenaries from Mongrel Miniature (sold by Badger Games here in the States).  They are prepped, and after their bases dry, I plan to prime them tomorrow (20 July).  Painting will commence thereafter - I plan to paint them up based on the Jamaican Defense Forces troops deployed as part of Operation Urgent Fury (the US-led intervention in Grenada).  They will be play a part in Operation Righteous Thunder...pics will follow upon completion of painting operations......

[carlos marighela]

Nicely done!.  :-*Actually those look quite a lot like Chilean Carabineros, similar colour scheme. Famously straitlaced the caribineros and probably divert considearbly from your chaps in being equally renowned for being unbribable.

Hmm we are thinking along similar lines. My fictional Caribbean island has its regular army in generic British jungle greens and standard British kit just like the old Jamaican uniforms. I used the Eureka Aden Brits for those as well as my Police Mobile Reaction Unit, I just painted the latter in blue uniforms. The Presidential Guard received more Gucci kit: flack jackets, US Woodland camo and Galils. I had some of the old Dadi i Piombo Italians floating around so they were a useful conversions source (basically slicing the carrying handles off their rifles).

I'll have to post some photos elsewhere.

[CapnJim]

Hmm.  Re: The Eureke Aden Brits, didja use the bush hats, the glengarries, or head-swap 'em with other headgear?