28mm Punic Wars advice

[Edleland]

Folks,
 
I'm starting a 28mm Punic Wars project and wanted to get some advice before I start buying, probably during the black friday sales. The intent is to have forces that can play, over time, Clash of Spears, Saga:Age of Hannibal, Infamy:Punic Wars and Epic Saga. I'll start with Republican Romans, Carthaginians and a third common enemy force (Either Iberians or Syracusians), but before the project is done, I'd like Romans, Carthaginians, Syracusians, Iberians, Gauls, Numidians, Non-Roman Italians and Pyrrhic Succesors (i.e. I'm embracing the never ending project of it all). So, initial questions:
 
1 - What 28mm mass battle rules would you recommend for this period? I think my target Roman force is roughly 32 x Hastati, 32 x Principes, 16 x Triarii, 24 x Velites and 12 x Equites, which is 15 Saga points, and I'd like something where that plus some allies/mercenaries is a reasonable force. Hail Caesar, WAB (and its offspring War and Conquest & Clash of Empires), Swordpoint and Osprey's new Wars of the Republic are all possibilities that I know of.
 
2 - Since I'm not build huge forces, cost is a lower priority for me and either metal or plastic is fine. Given that what figures would your recommend for:
 
A - Roman Infantry (Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader)
B - Roman Cavalry (Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader)
C - Carthaginian Infantry (Aventine, A&A, Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader)
D - Carthaginian Cavalry (Aventine, A&A, Agema, Gripping Beast, Crusader)
E - Iberian Infantry (A&A, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader)
F - Iberian Cavalry (A&A, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) - this one is a little tricky as I'd like to differentiate the light cavalry from the medium/heavy.
G - Greek/Syracusian Infantry (Aventine, Victrix, Warlord, Crusader)
H - Greek/Syracusian Cavalry (Aventine, Victrix, Warlord, Crusader)
 
I'd appreciate any advice folks who have tread this path before have on figures, rules, organization or changing historical understanding. Thanks for any recommendations you might have!
 
Thanks!
Ed

[frank xerox]

The victory iberians are very nice, as are the crusader ones who are a lot more static and less family.  If you can find the crusader rules supplement its got some very nice illustrations of iberians

[sgzleada71]

Nice plan.   Awesome era.  My  favourite.   

My opinion is

A - Roman Infantry (Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) --- I'd go Victrix Legions of Republic II  and  Agema plastic sets  w  the  Agema Triarii Character metals. If you want more lorica hamata you could get the Victrix  Legions of Republic I   or  use the plastic  Warlord Games  Caesars' Legions.  ( The latter are more dynamic than the Victrix). 
B - Roman Cavalry (Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) --  I've just got a few Warlord Games metals which are good. 
C - Carthaginian Infantry (Aventine, A&A, Agema, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) --- Victrix are hard to beat here ( set comes w  Carthaginians and Libyans)  and supplemented by the Agema Plastic Hannibal's Veterans. 
D - Carthaginian Cavalry (Aventine, A&A, Agema, Gripping Beast, Crusader)-- can't comment. 
E - Iberian Infantry (A&A, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) --  Victrix are great. 
F - Iberian Cavalry (A&A, Victrix, Gripping Beast, Crusader) - this one is a little tricky as I'd like to differentiate the light cavalry from the medium/heavy. -- Victrix , perhaps just for the light. 
G - Greek/Syracusian Infantry (Aventine, Victrix, Warlord, Crusader) ---Victrix
H - Greek/Syracusian Cavalry (Aventine, Victrix, Warlord, Crusader)----Victrix  ,  You might want to get heavy and light Greek Cav -  both great.    Aventine Succesor Cav are superb.  Not sure if they'd work as Syracusian though.  Also  1st Corps do lovely  Cav  but are ~ 10% smaller. 
 

[SJWi]

I can recommend the A&A Spanish figures. I bought some many years ago and recently bought some more. Their “November” offer is 10 figures for the price of 8. From memory they are quite compatible with Gripping Beast.

[pogo]

...
1 - What 28mm mass battle rules would you recommend for this period? I think my target Roman force is roughly 32 x Hastati, 32 x Principes, 16 x Triarii, 24 x Velites and 12 x Equites, which is 15 Saga points, and I'd like something where that plus some allies/mercenaries is a reasonable force. Hail Caesar, WAB (and its offspring War and Conquest & Clash of Empires), Swordpoint and Osprey's new Wars of the Republic are all possibilities that I know of
....
Thanks!
Ed

To the Strongest !!!
have played a competition online with most of these armies

Alex

[SJWi]

Pogo, I fully endorse TTS but think you need far more figures than Ed plans.

[pogo]

32 x Hastati, 32 x Principes, 16 x Triarii, 24 x Velites and 12 x Equites

I see
- 4 Quincunx at 15 pts = 60 (8 Hastati, 8 principes and 4 Triarii)
- 3 units cav at 9 pts = 27
- 6 units Velites at 4 pts = 24
so 111 pts without generals, heroes, veterans upgrade or camp/fortifications
you should get easily at 135 pts, which is about standard points for 6x4 table

Alex

[Pattus Magnus]

TtS doesn’t require specific figure counts for units (although, admittedly, it does look freaking amazing with large multi-figure stands). Should be easy to fit the unit size to whatever number of figures someone wants to paint, if that set struck Edeland’s fancy.

There are lots of rules systems suitable for gaming the Punic wars - sometimes it seems like games designers use that conflict to calibrate game mechanics. There are so many troop types in that war, almost anything in the ancient period can go on the table, so it’s a good testbed...

[SJWi]

Pogo, my mistake.  You are 100% correct. Indeed I use 12 figures per Quincunx with 4 of each of Hastatii, Triarii and Principes. This just happens to suit the figures I originally based for Hail Caesar. 

[Edleland]

On rules, I downloaded the free army lists for to the strongest and Polybian Roman was right there. I think it’s going to fit the scale of collection I’m going for, at least initially. Now to pick up rules and maybe a mat with a square grid? Thanks pogo, Patty’s Magnus and SJWi for the recommendation!

@sgzleada71 - do the warlord caesars legions plastics fit well with the victrix and Agema plastics? And did you head swap to get the old Punic wars helmets or just roll with them as is?

[Pattus Magnus]

An alternative to a mat with a square grid (if you’re at all unsure about committing to a gridded mat) is to use a normal mat and place a marker to show the corner of each square (ex. a pebble or a small coin or circular base with texture and a bush or grass tuft or similar in it). Simon Miller (Big Red Bat in this forum) uses that sort of unobtrusive corner marking (although I think his are permanently attached) and it looks great.

If the corner markers are not attached, you also have the option of making the grid squares larger or smaller if you decide later that you want to use a different size of base.

[sgzleada71]

On rules, I downloaded the free army lists for to the strongest and Polybian Roman was right there. I think it’s going to fit the scale of collection I’m going for, at least initially. Now to pick up rules and maybe a mat with a square grid? Thanks pogo, Patty’s Magnus and SJWi for the recommendation!

@sgzleada71 - do the warlord caesars legions plastics fit well with the victrix and Agema plastics? And did you head swap to get the old Punic wars helmets or just roll with them as is?

Scale works fine.  Some head swaps.   See attached.   

[SJWi]

Ed, not wanting to knock other rules but I think you are making a great call using TTS. They re-ignited my passion for ancient/medieval wargaming plus the author Simon Miller is a really nice bloke! If you plan to use your figures for multiple rulesets I presume you will use drop in sabot bases and base the figures individually? I didn't do this with many of my armies ( eg my Polybian Roman and Carthaginian)  which I now regret . I based them for Impetus which I dropped as a rule set.  Buying sabots adds to the bill but makes your armies far more versatile .You can then use them for big-battles games such as with TTS or smaller semi-skirmish sets such as Saga or Infamy .

[giorgio]

If you plan to fight the second punic war in Italy you should plan to add moro italians allies: Samnites, Osci, Etruscan etc fought bravely on both sides. A&A, Gripping beast, Victrix, and do not forget Crusader Apulians and Campanians. I have no Plastic but the other mix very well

[giorgio]

Are plastic victrix well compatible with others?