Hail Caesar vs To the Strongest

[LouieN]

Hello All,

I am looking for playing insights comparing Hail Caesar vs To The Strongest.  I have both rules sets but wanted to get some actual player experience. 

Thanks

[Eric the Shed]

I did a sort of review here -http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2024/05/first-time-using-to-strongest.html

We play a lot of Hail Caesar so TTS was somewhat different

[SJWi]

LouieN, I have never played Hail Caesar but have played TTS a lot since it came out. That said having seen Hail Caesar my view is that is that it is a "traditional" set of rules that use rulers and dice. Yes I'm sure there is a lot more to them than that but that is the big difference with TTS . I won't reprise all that Eric has said in his blog, but would make a few points observations.  One of my mates said that TTS "feels and looks more like a boardgame with figures". You might either love this or hate it. Because it uses a grid there are none of the arguments about movement distance or at what angle a unit is attacking. This also speeds up gameplay considerably vs "conventional rules" . I played a game of the "For King and Parliament" the ECW variant of TTS, and reckoned we got through a game in 2.5 hours that would have taken nearly 4 hours with other rules. Thus with TTS you can either have fast games or play larger games in the same time!  I would points out that TTS can get pricey. If you end up buying a gridded mat ( or two or three....) plus the numbered chits ( I hate seeing playing cards littering the table) and other chits you could probably spend an additional £100+ on top of the rules.  For me it has been a good investment as TTS really kickstarted my ancient gaming after 20 years in the doldrums. I took the view that a metal 28mm TTS army costs £200-300......and I have 20+ of them....so £100 on game-aids was almost small beer by comparison. All this said I do know some people who hate TTS including members of my own gaming group!           

[jon_1066]

Our impression of TTS wasn’t great.  The grid makes things regular but still throws up edge cases and strange situations.  The cards are a neat idea but one of the good thing about cards is evening out luck but in TTS a good card is very situation dependent so you don’t get that.

Hail Caesar is also fairly quick playing.  It’s a traditional game aimed at multi player big battle.  So has a slightly different focus.

[Triarius]

I've played both quite a bit and prefer To The Strongest a lot more to Hail, Caesar!. I have some problems with Hail, Caesar.

1. Decisions and strategy: To the Strongest has a lot more decision making to it. Once the lines clash you are faced with lots of decisions on where to attack, where to pull back, and what the best move for your units is. Hail, Caesar units just kind of smash into each other, you roll dice, and then stuff happens. There is not really much tactically going on.

2. Unit profiles. I don't think the units make much sense in Hail, Caesar. Unit power and stamina is determined mainly by frontage, but unit depth doesn't matter at all... All the units are very similar and maneuver the same way. I don't like this. In To the Strongest depth of units has an impact, and some units are much more unwieldy than others.

3. Rulebook - The layout of Hail, Caesar kind of sucks, it's hard sometimes to find specific rules. There are lots of strange and random rules that are hard to remember and appear in random parts of the book.

[fred]

When HC came out we played it loads - mainly with Fantasy armies. It is a pretty good ruleset, the command mechanism, will make or break if for you. I’d suggest a few sample turns with basic brigades (even just counters) to see how the triple movement vs no movement works for you.

I’ve played a lot more FKaP (ECW) than TtS, but they are very similar at the core. As noted above TtS is gridded, this can be a deal breaker for some. Whilst a custom gridded map is good, you can mark up existing ones - you only need to mark corners, or even use temporary grid markers, such as small stones to mark corners - the grid dosen’t need to be precise.

TtS uses cards for activation and I probably prefer the push your luck mechanism in TtS over HC all or one dice roll, I’d suggest getting hold of some small cards as they are less intrusive on the table - I got some from eBay sold as kids party favours. For melee we move to d10s over cards, but of no real impact. TtS and FKaP are very quick play, and part of this is definitely the simplification of movement.


Both sets are very flexible on basing, which is good, and flexible on period too.

[fred]

3. Rulebook - The layout of Hail, Caesar kind of sucks, it's hard sometimes to find specific rules. There are lots of strange and random rules that are hard to remember and appear in random parts of the book.

I’d forgotten this - the HC rules could be written on about 4 pages - the book is beautiful, but is more of a ‘oh wow’ coffee table book than a working rule book.

[SJWi]

Fred, I don't want to argue but I think using D10s for TTS does change the game slightly. I use chits but the small playing cards would do. My mate who dislikes TTS did manage to draw three "1s" for his comman'd's first three turns which was a tad dispiriting.

[Ran The Cid]

I have played a lot of Hail Caesar, just getting going on To The Strongest.

Rule book:  2nd ed HC is laid out better than 1st ed.  Key rules are called out with bullet points at the start of a section.  TTS is very wordy - it could easily be 50% shorter.  Key rules are often hidden under all the fluff.

Movement:  The grid system for TTS really does simplify the movement phase.  I don't find it boardgameish at all.  HC has major issues with units closing at angles.  Proximity and Facing leads to all sorts of questions about what's a legal move. 

Command:  rather similar with both rule sets using a division/general based system with commands having risks of ending the order phase.

Combat:  dice vs cards.  I'm good with both systems.  Dice can lead to larger swings in results - which can lead to exciting results.  Cards are fast and easy.

Table Clutter:  TTS has missile tokens, hero tokens, cards in play, disorder tokens, many of which are on the table from turn 1.  Makes movement a bit of a chore.  If you like a clean table, this can be distracting.  HC also has tokens (wounds/shaken, disorder), but these come during combat when there is less unit movement.

Unit stats:  TTS has 2 unit types (light and standard) and 3 levels (raw, standard, Vet).  Unit types can add distinction, but its limited.  HC has 4 unit types (skirmish, light, medium, heavy) and about 30 skills.  I have concerns that TTS will stagnate for repeated play as the units are so similar.  Ancients lists seems to have more variety, but Medieval lists are very identical.  Example:  Saxon vs Viking.  These two forces have (functionally) identical army lists with only 3 units available. 

Rule engine:  I really like the core TTS rules - a flip of a card resolves everything.  However, the rules are full of exceptions.  You are forced to learn all these edge cases to make the game play correctly.  HC is more traditional, push the units forward & roll dice.

[Ran The Cid]

Fred, I don't want to argue but I think using D10s for TTS does change the game slightly. I use chits but the small playing cards would do. My mate who dislikes TTS did manage to draw three "1s" for his comman'd's first three turns which was a tad dispiriting.

I had this happen to me when teaching a boardgame friend Hail Caesar.  He could not roll a 7 to save his live.  His girlfriend marched across the table and stomped him!  Needless to say, I did not convert him over to miniature games.

For convention games, I give players re-roll tokens to avoid this situation.  Nothing worse than sitting there for 30 minutes, only for your turn to end on a single dice roll.

[LouieN]

Thank you for all the replies.  It is appreciated.  Good insights and thoughts. 

[fred]

Fred, I don't want to argue but I think using D10s for TTS does change the game slightly. I use chits but the small playing cards would do. My mate who dislikes TTS did manage to draw three "1s" for his comman'd's first three turns which was a tad dispiriting.

We use cards for activation.

But dice for combat. Partly because some of our players get a bit confused about what they are drawing a card for - but splitting activation = cards and combat = dice seems to help.

I get there is probably a swaying of the odds with dice vs cards, especially as you move through the deck, but we play with the equivalent of 3 decks of cards per side, so there are plenty of 1s in there!

[fred]

TtS - yes the rules are hard to understand from the book - I struggled, then played FKaP which is much better structured, and then got TtS.

Thank you for all the replies.  It is appreciated.  Good insights and thoughts. 

I’d give them a quick run through, same figures will work for both. You can do a DIY gridded mat in 10-15mins using small pebbles or tufts etc.

[Cat]

I had this happen to me when teaching a boardgame friend Hail Caesar.  He could not roll a 7 to save his live.  His girlfriend marched across the table and stomped him!  Needless to say, I did not convert him over to miniature games.

For convention games, I give players re-roll tokens to avoid this situation.  Nothing worse than sitting there for 30 minutes, only for your turn to end on a single dice roll.

That activation mechanic is the worst part about Hail Caesar and Black Powder.  I've played in my one and last game, and seen many more, where one player consistently rolls poorly and gets to sit there for a four hour big convention game and never gets to actually play.   I would rather stuff cupcakes in my eyes.
 
Re-rolls can mitigate this a bit, but would not entice me to play again, because one player still has the chance of being 'that player'.  I'll only play this sort of game with the house rule that the first activation always works, but you don't get to roll for additional actions unless the first roll was an actual success.

[SJWi]

By the way if anyone plans to use TTS make sure you also download the errata/extra rules from "Even Stronger" which should be free download on the Big Red Bat webshop.  The rules amendments /clarifications are good but I admit that some of the extra detail is "army specific" . I guess certain players have lobbied the author to add rules for their specific army which means some armies have "special rules", other's don't. It has also been said that TTS doesn't play too well for medieval. This is true. If you take Wars of the Roses for example, you tend to have lots of billmen and bow on both sides and the armies feel "samey".....which they were!