Where did the German II collar symbol come from?

[ErikB]

On German uniform collars there is frequently a II symbol (picture it diagonally).

Anyone know the history or meaning of this mark?

Thanks.

[joroas]

It's a remnant of similar lace worn on collar, cuffs and fronts of uniforms from the 18th century.  You can still see vestiges on many full dress uniforms today. Full dress German uniforms of the time had similar lace on the cuffs.

[General]

Doppellitze II

[ErikB]

It's a remnant of similar lace worn on collar, cuffs and fronts of uniforms from the 18th century.  You can still see vestiges on many full dress uniforms today. Full dress German uniforms of the time had similar lace on the cuffs.

Sure, but where did that come from?  Is it just a generic symbol that became part of the culture like wreaths, for example?

Tut mir Leid, aber ich verstehe "Doppellitze II" nicht.  Kannst uns beschreiben? 

(Sorry, I don't understand "Doppellitze II".  Could you describe?)

[joroas]

Normal dress for the rich in the 17th and 18th century had gold and silver lace to reflect their wealth.  Uniforms from that early period, before they became more practical, copied those conventions, especially as officers bought their commissions and often paid for their regiment's kit out of their own pocket.  Officers had silver and gold lace, troops had white or yellow.  Patterns emerged to distinguish different regiments or to show off or to  reflect honours awarded. The German army still has that pattern on their uniforms, the colour in the centre of the litzen shows what branch. Infantry white, cavalry yellow, tanks pink etc.

[ErikB]

Thanks, Joroas.

But where did that image (Litze?) come from? 

Does it mean anything?  Are they meant to be columns or the roman number 2?

[joroas]

No, it is just lace.  Generals in the German army wear a different litzen, but if you look at uniforms of the Prussian army in the 1750s you will see the same design, basically they are elaborate button holes.

[ErikB]

Button holes.     That simple, huh?

Thanks heaps, pal.

[former user]

these


yes, button holes
remained with guard units - russians had them too

[Michi]

The German army still has that pattern on their uniforms, the colour in the centre of the litzen shows what branch. Infantry white, cavalry yellow, tanks pink etc.

That´s correct for the Wehrmacht in WWII. Bundeswehr still has them, but only on coloured ground (some colours are different now). Google for KRAGENSPIEGEL...

[joroas]

British Guards still have the remnants of cuff lace. Take a look at full dress uniforms around the world today, many units still wear them.

[ErikB]

I can see now that they're big, abstract button holes.

They always looked like the number II or like columns and I wondered what was number I or what the columns were holding up.

Thanks for the answers, folks.

[Rick]

Sorry for the threadomancy, but found some more information on these. They were officially called Doppellitzen-Kragen (collar bars), unofficially Spiegel (mirrors). Apparently they originated in Guards units of the Imperial army to signify the protection of the crown, Heer units continued to use them signifying protection of the nation.