British in North Russia.

[Will Bailie]

It's funny to read British, American and Canadian accounts of the Battle of Toulgas and the associated campaign - they all read along the lines of, "WE did all the real fighting and saved the day, those OTHER guys were just along for the ride". 

Found this almost by accident.  Picture is a bit grainy, but fascinating stuff regardless - film from Arkangelsk and Toulgas in 1918-19:

http://www3.nfb.ca/ww1/postwar-film.php?id=538503

http://www3.nfb.ca/ww1/postwar-film.php?id=538504

Press "PLEIN ECRAN" for full screen.

Unfortunately, I have a REALLY SLOW connection here, so can't watch the full show, but the bits I did see are very cool.

[Red Sveta]

Will Bailie  thats great , thanks.  Iv never seen those films before. The uniform detail was interesting and the terrible conditions they were in were plain to see. There were 2 battalions of the yorkshires there and one had a mutiny when they were orded back to the front from Archangel. All of the British troops that were there before the relief force went out were catogary B,C,D men, not fit for active service but they were thrown in just the same.

[Red Orc]

Well there you go, that explains something at least. I read that the British up there were 'not front line troops' which seemed odd. Also my great uncle was supposed to have been in clink for 'mutiny' but I never knoew if that was just a family story.

I can see there's alot more stuff around than there was when I tried to research this several years ago... maybe time to give it a go again.

[Red Sveta]

Mutiny on active service carried the death penalty. The story goes that the King insisted that theses men not be executed and so they served prison sentences back in the UK, these were cut short and the men released early after a few months.  I belive that public opinion swayed the desicion not to execute them, The campaign in Russia was very unpopular, people were tired of war, there was also a growing support for socialism following the war and the authorties were concerned not to provoke unrest.

[commissarmoody]

There seems to be quite a bit of info on the Polar Bears who seem to think they did all the fighting, but not much on the Brits. It is a strange tale with not many photos of the British units about it seems.

That's understandable, from my experience in the military especially being over there is your view of what's going on is only focused on what's going on with your unit. There is also always a little bit of friendly pissing contest between units on who is harder, or suffered more or did more then the other unit. I also think there is generally lots of interest in the polo bears in the US and the Archangel campaign.  They fall under the whole US army mythos of the citizan solder, being natianl guard and all that.
Its a well known post WW1 campaign and were as are British customs have a whole mess of conflicts to choose from, from Ireland, Mesopotamia, NWF and the inter empire to reinstate authority over.
All we had were under reported "policing actions" with small units in south/central america..

[Mark Plant]

All of the British troops that were there before the relief force went out were catogary B,C,D men, not fit for active service but they were thrown in just the same.

It was a good call in many ways. The terrain and weather meant that fighting was never going to be very prolonged. The technical superiority of the Allies always gave them an advantage when defending.

To send men who had already done long service in the Western Front was seen as unfair. It was the turn of other men to "do their bit".

[Budyenny]

Been away from this site a while, interesting stuff about peoples ideas of what is/was North Russia.

Books that may be of use that I have.
The Day we Almost Bombed Moscow, very good on all aspects.
Russian Sideshow,
Fighting the Bolsheviks,
When Hell Froze Over,
The Victors Dilemma,
Farewell to the Don,
At War With the Bolsheviks,
With Ironside in North Russia,
The Czars British Squadron,

All good books and worth getting if you can also not 100% reliable is Stamping out the Virus, which has if I remember rightly my friend Richard Tyson's article mentioned in an earlier message. Richard btw is still very much interested in the RCW period and he and I are always exchanging views and opinions on this facinating subject. one other book which I was referred to by Richard is Lincoln's book Red Victory this is a very good tome to start to try to understand the complexities of what was going on, I too endorse the recommendation.

I agree Locker Lampson never served in North Russia, I seem to recall, Romanis, Bulgaria, Ottomon Empire, Middle East theaters.

Hope any of the above is of interest if not delete it.

Paul Ireland (Budyenny)

[H.M.Stanley]

Apols but this is worth a bump for mine and Bolshy's games