Question on firearms

[Operator5]

Okay, let's say I'm hunting some VERY big game around 1920s/1930s. What type of rifle am I going to use?

And I'm not looking for military grade weapons (smgs, BAR, etc.), but a rifle/shotgun that a serious big game hunter would be using.

[PeteMurray]

You're going to use a heavy long rifle, probably chambered for .375 magnum, in a bolt action. Your discriminating hunter is going to have either a custom rifle or one manufactured in very small lots. Remington was (I think) the foremost American hunting rifle company of the time, with the Europeans using Mausers or Mannlichers. I seem to recall hearing that the Martini-Henry formed the basis of at least one Brit big-game rifle. The ironic part is that quite a few big game rifles were compatible with military rounds (though obviously your well-to-do hunter is going to go with something a bit more match grade.)

I don't think shotguns were used too frequently, even with slugs.

[Vanvlak]

A state of the art elephant gun:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003690.html
Or rather, the L-39 Lahti 20mm AT rifle fielded up to 1941. This would actually be later than your period, but something slightly older than this should do. The similar in concept Boys AT rifle was adopted for service in 1937:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle,_Anti-Tank,_.55_in,_Boys
Although these are military, a civilian precursor good enough to stop a - ummm- dino? - could be imagined.
Finally, another Wiki link, this time to real elephant guns from the 1850s onwards. Not much here though.

[Hammers]

I don't think shotguns were used too frequently, even with slugs.

Are you sure? It is quite common for boar hunting these days.

[PeteMurray]

For big game on the magnitude of a heffalump or a water buffalo, a 12-gauge slug just doesn't have enough kick behind it, from what I understand. Now, granted, there are 4-gauge shotguns out there, and some madman will have made slugs for it (thus accounting for why miniatures are so expensive these days), but on average you get higher muzzle velocities and consequently penetration and stopping power out of a rifle round.

I'm no expert. My gun experience is limited to Boy Scout camp and plinking at the range. I get beat up firing the Mosin-Nagant or the Garand. A real hunting rifle would knock me flat on my butt.

[Operator5]

Now if I were to suggest a Remington Model 30 bolt action or Model 8 autoloader, would the true hunter have modified it to a larger bore?

[Cory]

Many of the "elephant guns" would be custom built as most hunters would only get a chance to go on one or two safaris in their lifetime.

The gun itself would often be obsessively planned and its characteristics would have more to do with personal preferences of someone relying on the stories and opinions of others. Growing up I knew a local gunsmith who had made many such guns in the 30's through late fifties. For each gun he still had the notes which usually came with a rather exagerated article torn from Field and Stream or similar magazine that told of how the ferocious beast ignored the first shot or two. Thus customers were convinced they needed "bigger".

Most of the guns Iver made ranged in caliber from 30-30 to .45 but I have little doubt that larger were made.

[Stecal]

To be honest, a well to do gentlemen on safari would have custom made firearms.  Parkers, Purdys, etc.  Orvis and Cabellas still sell/resell firearms that range in the $5000-15,000 range for the elite.

Guns were the golf clubs of the 1920s-40s.  Shooting and trap/skeet  was a popular sport for both men and women.

[Stecal]

Now if I were to suggest a Remington Model 30 bolt action or Model 8 autoloader, would the true hunter have modified it to a larger bore?


"Wildcatting" or using a larger powder charge in a larger shell with a downsized neck for the smaller bullet started in the 1920s-40s.  We know these today as Express or Magnum and they often were a modification to existing firearms for large game.

Note too that the weight /power ration of the bullet was key, not just its diameter.  A fairly small diameter bullet could also be quite long and areodynamic gaining it mass from the length, not its diameter like a round ball.

The "large ring" receiver military mauser was the favored action of gunsmiths for these conversions due to its strength.  I have never heard of a semi-auto big game rifle - always bolt action.  They were considered "unsporting"

From Rifles of the World, 2nd Ed., pg 82, ISBN 0-87349-202-1

on the British Mausers:
"Prior to 1914 the magazine rifle struggled to gain a foothold in a market dominated by the single-shot block action rifles and the shotgun like double-rifles beloved by big-game hunters in Africa and Indai.  The inability of the Lee action to handle cartridges powerful enough to down rhino and elephant created a niche for the Mauser.  Most British gunmakers bought actions in Germany or simply imported complete rifles ... prior to 1914"

So we have the Mauser Sporting rifles of 1898, 1908 - over 50,00 each made in calibres like 9.3 x57 and 10.75x57.    The Mauser Model A Sporting Rifle appeared in 1922 "for the British market" and was manufactured from 1922 to 1941 in calibres like 9.3x62, 280 Ross, 318 Rimless Nitro, 10.75x68 and .404 Rimless Nitro Express.

This would be your "stock" big game rifle.  Often restocked or modified and rebranded by British Gunmakers.

[dadlamassu]

If you want to tackle something particularly serious in terms of size and armour I'd suggest a war-surplus 13.2mm Panzer Abwehr Gewehr M1918:

 http://www.antitank.co.uk/ww1_anti-tank_rifles1.htm

[Hammers]

a war-surplus 13.2mm Panzer Abwehr Gewehr M1918:

Now, THAT's a gun! The bipod itself looks like it weights about 5kg. It seems to have been very effective when fired but hopless to field due to weight and lenght. I read somewhere, not in this link, that the kick was so hard it broke collarbones and brused shoulders that you had to replace the marksmen at a rate which made it even more impractical. But Pulp heroes are made of sterner materials, dontcher know...

[Bullshott]

To be honest, a well to do gentlemen on safari would have custom made firearms. Parkers, Purdys, etc. Orvis and Cabellas still sell/resell firearms that range in the $5000-15,000 range for the elite.

I agree with this sentiment. Traditional custom-made, large-calibre, double-barrelled elephant guns were the choice of the experienced gentleman hunter for heavy game. The keys to this choice of weapon are stopping power (through a large calibre and propellant charge) and reliability (through simplicity of design and quality craftsmanship). A double-barrelled gun has less to jam than a magazine rifle when it really counts - i.e. when being charged by an irate elephant/rhino/dino!

Although written in 1885, I can think of no better example than Allan Quartermain's choice of heavy game rifles for equipping the expedition in in King Solomon's Mines:

"Three heavy breech-loading double-eight elephant guns, weighing  about fifteen ponunds each, to carry a charge of eleven drachms of black powder .... by a well-known London firm, most excellent makers"

Quartermain's expedition also took:

"Three double-500 Expresses .... for medium-sized game, such as eland or sable antelope, or for men, especially in an open country and with the semi-hollow bullet."

"One double No.12 central-fire Keeper's shotgun, full choke on bothe barrels ...... (for) shooting game for the pot."

"Three Winchester repeating rifles (not carbines), spare guns."

"Three single-action Colt's revolvers, with the heavier, or American pattern of cartridge."


This list would differ little for an expedition in the 1920s, other than for the use of modern propellant instead of black powder and perhaps double-action or automatic pistols. Moving on to 1912, Lord John Roxton's choice for big game in The Lost World was:

"Bland's .577 axite express

and for men:

".470, telescopic sight, double ejector, point blank up to three-fifty."


Once again - large calibre and simplicity.

[Hammers]

OK, so I am probably going to take a bit of flak for this being a irrelevant post and making too much of it but I can't help myself.

Immediately when I saw this post I came to think about a fictional gun described in the Sherlock Holmes story 'The Adventure of the Empty House'. So I pulled out my 'The Annotated Sherlock Holmes' and read that it takes place Holmes returns from his presumed death in the arms of Prof. Moriarty at the Falls of Reichenbach. A Colonel Sebastian Moran, 'the second most dangerous man in London' and an accomplice of Moriarty tries to assassin Holmes with the help of a specially design airgun. This gun is powerful enough to fire a revolver bullet across a street, shatter a window and still blow a mans brains out. Some airgun, eh?! About this gun Holmes says...



According to my book it would look something like this:



Now, about this guy Von Herder some Sherlock Holmes fanfic nerd has written the following, which I found funny in a boring kind of way, if you understand what I mean:



And do you know what the real catch in this story is? I actually have the Foundry special edition Colonel Moran with Van Herders nasty airgun in his hands!



This miniature was a gift whiah I got along with some other goodies from the utterly, utterly generous and friendly First Lady Helen.

[Torradas]

If was aiming for big game in the 20s/30s I´d go for the 13mm Mauser



Although technically, it´s an anti-tank rifle.

Some 20 gauge shotguns that may also be helpful:
- Ithaca Auto & Burglar Shotgun
- Savage Model 620 Slide-Action
- Remington Model 11A

Hope it helps,
Pedro

PS.: All guns straight from the "Call of Cthulhu 1920´s Investigator´s companion"

EDIT: Just now noticed that the AT ww1 rifle had been already mentioned - still would be my choice though

[jlstuht]

If you want something huge, Sir Samuel Baker carried a 2-ga. on his African jaunts.  (That's a half-pound per round!)  Biggest thing I've shot is a 10 ga. and that puppy was enough for me -- I can't even begin to imagine what Baker's monster was like to fire!