oh good grief: GW Has gone la la!

[Mason]

Agreed.
This is probably going to be one of their 'single release' things, as they wont sell anywhere near enough minis (by their way of looking at it, anyway...) to support it.

[Daeothar]

The way I understood it is that the rules are merely vehicles to sell miniatures. That's why there are so many changes between editions.

And skirmish games simply do not sell as many miniatures, while the rules and fluff writing effort/time is comparable to the larger games. So less sales for the same investment. they tried to compensate for that by telling everyone to only use WYSIWYG miniatures. But really; who paints up a mini and then cuts it up again because he bought a lasgun to replace the original autogun after the last game? Nobody did that...

Qui Bono gentlemen; always the same question...

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

i couldn't care less for a new GW Game,though their Gameboxes always offered great Value,at least in my Area,95$ is pretty reasonable for a Dreadfleet or Space Hulk 3ed Box 
The X-Wing Gamebox goes for 60$ in my local Shop,just to say...

[Col.Stone]

True!
A stock that has grown over 500% over five years, and that steadily, must be a typical example of them not knowing anything...

I think it might be more of a sign that the stockmarket loves blowing bubbles

[Dolmot]

I've always seen their skirmish games primarily as a way to lure new players in. No matter how much they try to push their "skirmish level" FB and 40k variants, one just can't play those with ten troopers. The rules don't scale that well, and as soon as you get into the tournament-oriented WH scene, everyone wants to play 1000 points minimum, which typically stands for dozens of minis, plenty of larger models, a full-size table with at least some terrain, and cartloads of $. It's a big jump from nothing.

Back in the day when even the most basic "starter" WH army prices were literally far beyond my budget, we happily played BB and Mordheim, learnt painting, converted single minis and so on. The realistic alternative wouldn't have been full-blown WH but possibly some completely different hobby. That's what they're missing by not offering true small investment (and small space) games.

Of course, long-term support of those games is difficult. To reach the total-beginner audience, they should be available in stores. However, brick-and-mortars already struggle to fit the enormous WH product lines on their shelves. A skirmish game box doesn't yield large sales on a regular basis. It would be a long-term investment for the seller, but those have been scrapped ages ago "for efficiency". Including multiple add-on boxes makes the problem of physical space even worse, but without those the game is considered unsupported and thus dead. Eventually all skirmish games were effectively discontinued. Every time there were vocal, yet in the big picture, relatively few complaints.

After the Dreadfleet flop (poor game, low sales, incompatible with the main product lines), it could make sense to try something more closely related to main WH products again.

[weismonsters]

space marines in armor inside bigger space marine armor.   This is the end result of Moar Skulz logic.

I was trying to sum up what bothered me about that grey knight machine, but couldnt quite pin it down. But you have captured it perfectly.

Regarding skirmish games, I really enjoyed the Confrontation rules that they put out in white dwarf, I was disappointed they never did the second half of it, but there was enough there that  you could play games of even a campaign with a bit of filling in the gaps.  And the fact that it took 3 hours to resolve fight between half a dozen people was a good thing in my book.  

[Andrew May]

Was Dreadfleet really a flop?

[Dolmot]

Was Dreadfleet really a flop?

Well, Space Hulk was a hit. It sold out and then fetched silly prices on eBay. Its Boardgamegeek rank is currently #85, the highest for any GW product (excluding BB LRB, which in its current form is effectively a fan-made product).

However, Dreadfleet has mostly got lukewarm or outright bitter reviews. Its rank is #1085. Yes, one thousand and eighty-five. Both local stores still have piles left, even though anyone could have bought one for up to 50% discount in these two years.

Did they print too many, aiming too high after SH's success? Was it SH's legendary fame and faithful reproduction which gave it the momentum, while DF was too far from Man-o-War? Too few space marines? Uncharted Seas already having reaped fantasy naval gamers' cash and interest? I can't say for sure. But I do know plenty of people who genuinely love SH while I haven't heard of anyone recommending DF or buying it because it's a good game. The only reasons I've heard have been "it has neat ships and a mat" and "I thought it would sell out and go on eBay for silly prices".

No idea how many people really bought it and how many later regretted it. For GW, it could have been good enough success as plenty of copies were sold at least to the retailers. It definitely didn't live up to the hype, though. For the next standalone game, they no longer can count on artificial scarcity and compulsive hoarding as the primary selling points.

[Col. Aubrey Bagshot]

Some really good points made in this thread, and it seems to me that a new skirmish game on the horizon could signal a pardigm shift in GW thinking....

Yes, it still wants to churn out increasingly bad and rediculous minis like these latest marines and last months robo Khorne death rabbit, but perhaps, just perhaps, GW has finaly realised that not ALL of their customer base is under 18 and lives in mid town america.

Just like Hollywood, perhaps they have realised that they should be doing something for their "older" customers?

Rogue Trader was nearly 30 years ago.... And yes, im sure many of us on this wonderful forum still remember the first time they played it and the fun
its produced...

 So perhaps, by bringing out a stand alone box that harks back to RT or v2 of 40K, thats also rich in the back story and expanded universe ( Slanns anybody?) some of us old farts may, just may, venture back into a GW store to hand over some cash...

Cynical sales ploy or not, that sort of game would get my £65, just to see how many memories it would stir.....

[Conquistador]

<snip>

Yes, it still wants to churn out increasingly bad and rediculous minis like these latest marines and last months robo Khorne death rabbit, but perhaps, just perhaps, GW has finaly realised that not ALL of their customer base is under 18 and lives in mid town america.

<snip>

Hey, hey, hey!  I know some sub-18 types that eschew the GW drug.   

And it not just "mid town america" that is supporting GW.     It seems they sell well in Europe too...   

Now, Hollywood... there you got me...       I would trade you Hollywood, lock, stock, and barrel (if I could,) for Ground Zero Games and feel like I profited handsomely...

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

<snip>We still do not know the rules for any of the new stuff.

A very, very valid point.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Col. Aubrey Bagshot]

A very, very valid point.

Gracias,

Glenn

True, but its not rocket science...
I think we all have a good idea of what they will be like, unless GW suddenly move to D10's or something equally as rad.... ....

[Kitsune]

A very, very valid point.

Gracias,

Glenn

I think this is part of the reason for Dreadfleet not doing to well. GW expected people to stump up £70 for something that nobody knew anything about, had never seen played and had not been reviewed anywhere. Once people did get a copy and reviews started coming out, they were invariably bad.

I know two people that bought a copy - one always buys anything GW & will defend them to his last breath and the other bought it purely to flip on ebay ala Space Hulk.

[King Tiger]

A very, very valid point.

Gracias,

Glenn

No no of course not....*cough*...saying nothing

[Elbows]

Dread Fleet was an answer to a question no one asked.  Naval wargaming has always been extremely niche.  That niche is often well outside of the normal GW customer nowadays.  At all of the conventions I attend you have the GW tournament crowd (and across the room a smaller Warmachine tournament group)...and then everyone else.  There is shockingly small carry over.  Even when they're loitering between games, looking at other stuff they give me a blank stare when I ask if they would like to participate in a game I'm running.

They really do seem to be two hugely different crowds.