(COMMERCIAL) miniature pricing

[surixurient]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on miniature pricing.  It's a vast and diverse landscape from GW selling single figures for $40+ and bundling them for more like $2-$5 to a more standard $3-$5 from most manufacturers to $7 from others to $1 from others.   What are the factors behind the prices?  What are the advantages and disadvantages to pricing high or low or in between?  Have there been companies which changed tactics over the years, what was the result?

[workerBee]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on miniature pricing.  It's a vast and diverse landscape from GW selling single figures for $40+ and bundling them for more like $2-$5 to a more standard $3-$5 from most manufacturers to $7 from others to $1 from others.   What are the factors behind the prices?  What are the advantages and disadvantages to pricing high or low or in between?  Have there been companies which changed tactics over the years, what was the result?

Wow, just a bit wide-ranging set of questions!

My first figures were 25 cents (infantry) and 50 cents (cavalry) but they went 100% a month later to 50 cents and a dollar.     Talk about inflation!   

I guess it depends if you are talking new figures or second hand figures.  Also my old Der Kriegspieler figures (most, since some molds may not be usable,) cost more know then "in the day" because of the price of metal has gone up.  Also the DK figures are "labor of love" more than "supporting a family" priced. 

Im my wild multi-racial dreams here is what seems reasonable to my pocketbook.

3 mm figures as per Picoarmor's Oddzial Osmy figures http://www.picoarmor.com/pages/home.php and Tumblinf Dice http://www.tumblingdiceuk.com/       

6 mm figures per Baccus https://www.baccus6mm.com/    

1:6000 ships per the Figurehead ships at http://www.nobleminis.com/Figurehead/Figurehead6000.pdf   

Now down the "oversized figures" that most of you use;     

If I bought 15 mm figures I think iwould want them priced about at the Ground Zero Games level - shop.groundzerogames.net

If I buy 25/28 mm figures (and it matters quite a bit about the quality of the sculpting for these size figures)  I find the pricing of Great Endeavours http://www.greatendeavours.co.uk/colonials/ 10 Infantry for 10 U$D and 4 Cavalry for 10 U$D ideal but I don't need anymore of those;  Tiger Miniatures http://www.tigerminiatures.co.uk/ (bought mine from via a US agent) £4.50 for 5 figures quite acceptable; Gringo40s £1.50 - 1.75 for infantry quite fair; and (for single figure buys of PC characters obtained locally) I would go a bit higher even up to the level of Reaper's (micelings, anyone?) and, possibly in very exceptional cases, HassleFree's miniatures -  but you can bet I would not build a Platoon or larger sized units at those prices. Also check out the prices for 25 mm figures at GZG  - shop.groundzerogames.net - again.

Obviously, even if I was not repelled by the appearance of most GW figures (and I am) I would not pay those prices.  Never have.  Never will.  And I am better off because of that.  Second hand/Evilbay Lizardmen are the one exception where I bought GW figures knowingly at amuch reduced price....

Now those prices do not factor in postage.  That might cause me to not buy, or reduce the number of figures bought, because of the postage costs.  And I see that a factor no matter where you live. 

Now OOP miniatures on EvilBay... that is another kettle of fish entirely...

Gracias,

Glenn

[Westfalia Chris]

There are a lot of factors involved. From my point of view, the most important ones would include the following (focusing primarily on metal and resin figures - for plastics, the circumstances would be quite different):

• The size and complexity of the figures. First, a complex sculpt will (hopefully) command a higher fee for the sculptor. Larger, and especially multipart figures require more complex moulds, which implies more frequent replacement of the production moulds due to wear and tear. Also, if more material is involved, the material cost per figure should be considered. Finally, the creation of the master and production moulds will probably me more expensive if it is complicated/requires particularly skilled craftsmen.
• The type of figure and the expected sales. Obviously, depending on how the game system is structured, customers will require differing numbers of various figure types, e.g. one officer to "lead" a squad but x troopers to fill it up - if we assume similar costs in mould-making, the number of officer units sold will be smaller than the troopers, so the respective cost-per-unit will be higher.
• The type of market, or genre the range is operating in. Modern sci-fi games tend to revolve around smaller numbers of figures (e.g. Infinity), so again the cost-per-unit will be higher than for games requiring dozens or hundreds of miniatures. Also, due to the success of Games Workshop in the Sci/Fantasy market, there used to be less competition there thatn there is in the historical market, where lots of smaller companies compete with ranges of increasingly comparable high quality product.
• The popularity of the product will allow the manufacturer to charge a premium price, as seen with GW and Warmachine, and possibly the Infinity stuff, too. Games Workshop spent years on building a strong position in the market (by various means), whereas Warmachine and Infinity aim at a "deluxe image" by promoting it as a high-quality product. This may, of course, also backfire - I've seen a number of German miniature startups do poorly initially because their price assumption was along the GW lines, without the established fanbase and often with sub-par product simply not worth it.

My pennyworth on that topic. There might be other issues involved, such as people running their business as an aside note next to their day job and primarily want to see it cover its own cost and maybe turn a small profit, with the main reward being seeing one's own range grow popular. But those factors are so diverse that it would be impractical to try to cover them all.

[FramFramson]

There are a lot of factors involved. From my point of view, the most important ones would include the following (focusing primarily on metal and resin figures - for plastics, the circumstances would be quite different):

• The size and complexity of the figures. First, a complex sculpt will (hopefully) command a higher fee for the sculptor. Larger, and especially multipart figures require more complex moulds, which implies more frequent replacement of the production moulds due to wear and tear. Also, if more material is involved, the material cost per figure should be considered. Finally, the creation of the master and production moulds will probably me more expensive if it is complicated/requires particularly skilled craftsmen.
• The type of figure and the expected sales. Obviously, depending on how the game system is structured, customers will require differing numbers of various figure types, e.g. one officer to "lead" a squad but x troopers to fill it up - if we assume similar costs in mould-making, the number of officer units sold will be smaller than the troopers, so the respective cost-per-unit will be higher.
• The type of market, or genre the range is operating in. Modern sci-fi games tend to revolve around smaller numbers of figures (e.g. Infinity), so again the cost-per-unit will be higher than for games requiring dozens or hundreds of miniatures. Also, due to the success of Games Workshop in the Sci/Fantasy market, there used to be less competition there thatn there is in the historical market, where lots of smaller companies compete with ranges of increasingly comparable high quality product.
• The popularity of the product will allow the manufacturer to charge a premium price, as seen with GW and Warmachine, and possibly the Infinity stuff, too. Games Workshop spent years on building a strong position in the market (by various means), whereas Warmachine and Infinity aim at a "deluxe image" by promoting it as a high-quality product. This may, of course, also backfire - I've seen a number of German miniature startups do poorly initially because their price assumption was along the GW lines, without the established fanbase and often with sub-par product simply not worth it.

My pennyworth on that topic. There might be other issues involved, such as people running their business as an aside note next to their day job and primarily want to see it cover its own cost and maybe turn a small profit, with the main reward being seeing one's own range grow popular. But those factors are so diverse that it would be impractical to try to cover them all.

One more point to add: Expected print runs. If you can reliably sell many copies of the same figure, it's much easier to lower costs by volume.

[Johnno]

What are the factors behind the prices? 

Hate to beat a dead horse but ultimately you need to cover your costs...so companies that are small operations, in theory have smaller costs. None of the companies listed, as far as I know have more than one "brick and mortar" store if that.

The much hated, oft criticised, GW has hundreds of stores and possibly thousands of employees, benefits etc.

I was speaking with my friend who is an employee of GW, who advised that a single plastic sprue can cost 1/2 million to make (and UK and USA get 1 each). Most kits have 2-4 sprues etc. I dont know how accurate that is but wow that's anywhere from 2-4 million for the molds, not including paying sculptors, employees, overhead etc.

I for one would love for GW to get rid of numerous stores, employees etc to lower the MSRP of the figures but I can also buy figures that I deem worthwhile...

[FramFramson]

Wait, plastic sprues existed long before GW was a company, often for quite cheap kits and products. Certainly for things cheaper than GW minis.

I don't want to immediately contradict the point, because I don't personally know the full details of GW's sprue production processes, but I am definitely wondering what on earth they could be doing differently from the vast majority of the other companies who've ever produced plastic sprues for high-volume moulds.

[King Tiger]

Sprues don't take 1/2 a million to make, the land raider mold took an INVESTMENT of £250,000, that's to invest in it, the sprues only cost £1-2, the entire land raider probably only cost around £4, the packaging £4 covering shipping costs £4, paying back that investment £6 and making a profit £6, that would make a land raider £24, GW sold it originally for £30, so they were paying off more investment and getting more profit...it now costs £45 despite the fact the mold investment has been paid for, so now its pure £33 profit

RIP OFF!

FW are just as bad, they use PVC resin and 1 kilo of that only costs around £1.50 (well the source was in dollars so £1.50-2 per kilo) then they charge 20x that for a model.

[Westfalia Chris]

I am not an industry insider, but from what I've heard, the cost of plastic injection moulds has decreased markedly over the last fifteen years, partly because of the possibility to have some types of sprue machine-milled rather than requiring a highly-skilled mouldmaker. Still, depending on size and complexity, such a mould easily runs five to six figures. Once those costs are recouped, though, the manufacture of plastic sprues costs very little (I've heard cents, although I'd consider that a bit exaggerated, given the material cost which is increasing pretty much constantly). The initial outlay, however, is one of the reasons that model railway scenery is gravitating towards laser-cut cardboard, especially for smaller firms - the customer base is aging and shrinking, so many companies cannot justify these costs anymore.


That said, the prices GW demand for their plastic kits can be explained by their dominant position (they are pretty much the only company who offers stuff in that  particular segment).

It must be stressed, though, that we should differentiate between what a company MUST charge in order to cover costs and turn a profit and what it CAN charge due to its position in the market. Most small competitors, especially in a highly atomistic market such as historical gaming figures, would lean towards the former, due to high competition, whereas GW can pretty much charge what they think a sufficient number of customers will pay, as the substitution of product is more complicated.

[King Tiger]

Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome

[Westfalia Chris]

Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome

Eventually, it will likely lead to an erosion of their customer base. This is only a problem if their key objective is long-term sustainable business. If, however, they are opting for short- and mid-term profit maximisation, without regard for future developments, then their strategy of high pricing is the option that will realize the best short-term result for their shareholders.

That is another fact - GW Plc is pretty much the only games company I know of that actually has public stock (correct me if I'm wrong). Such an organizational form does not necessarily have the same focus on sustainable and long-term business activities as privately-owned enterprise tends to have, for various reasons.

The main issue remains, there are a lot of factors in miniature pricing, and IMHO, it may lead to erroneous results if you consider Games Workshop to be in the same category, or even the same market niche, as companies such as the Perry brothers' venture. For best results, you should restrict or categorize the choice of comparable entities according to product range and organisational form, but it can get tricky to accurately class companies.

I would consider Games Workshop's main direct competitors to be Warmachine and Mantic, as they operate on comparable game concepts and/or product ranges (e.g. an integrated gaming experience approach, Sci-Fi or Fantasy miniatures). Those companies seem to be run as a business first and foremost, from what I know. If you look at these companies' pricing models and product ranges, they are rather comparable - units, character figures, extras, boxed and organised according to their own game rules, and, depending on the restrictivity of the game environment, non-substitutable if the customer wishes to partake in all parts of the "hobby" (e.g. no non-company figures at "official" events).

In contrast, there is no such exclusivity in the historical market (although Warlord Games certainly try to establish such a distinction for their products, notably with Bolt Action). Demand is much more strongly based on individual customers' personal tastes when it comes to manufacturers, and people may mix and match those figures they consider the most suitable. Thus, companies operate in a much more competitive environment (i.e. there are a lot of companies offering competitive product vs. the GW model, where making full use of the competitive situation would mean changing game systems).

[redzed]

Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome

you and others constantly whining at every opportunity.

[Westfalia Chris]

you and others constantly whining at every opportunity.

Please stop it right now, and King Tiger, and everybody else, please stay civil, too. This was a reasonable discussion at the start, and I would like to keep it this way.

[King Tiger]

Hey I have been...so far.

[Conquistador]

Yes but that way of pricing is only leading to 1 outcome

Profit?  Which is the base requirement to stay in business?

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

Hey I have been...so far.

I believe that was merely warning shot across your bow.  And a reminder to all of us.  Based on your comment above, it was warranted.  Edit:  I believe RedZed's comment was what triggered the warning though...

Gracias,

Glenn