The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Daeothar]

This is why I'm now interested in Warhammer Renaissance; moving big blocks of troops around the table without the munchkin combo-shenanigance sounds like just the right flavour.

I don't facebook though, so anyone know how to get a copy of the rules without selling my soul to Meta?

[Hobgoblin]

I wonder if Warhammer has always suffered a bit from not having the rock/paper/scissors element that most rank'n'flank games have. Its strength as a large-skirmish fantasy game is that its long, RPG-style stat line allows for lots of differentiation between different types of creature. But, by the same token, that means that weapon types and fighting styles are much less important than creature types.

[steders]

For me, Ravening Hordes (for second edition) is where the rot set in:

Literally spat my tea out at that!
Not taking the piss, it just reminded me of oldest mate steve who still says the rot set in when they put the figures on slotta bases!

[Belligerentparrot]

me of oldest mate steve who still says the rot set in when they put the figures on slotta bases!

Whereas the lead rot sets into those pre-slotta figures more easily than later ones 

[Hobgoblin]

Literally spat my tea out at that!
Not taking the piss, it just reminded me of oldest mate steve who still says the rot set in when they put the figures on slotta bases!

Haha! 

You know, I'd probably agree with him somewhat! Why? Well, I think the first slotta-based ranges were excellent (the C15 orcs in particular, although many of those were conversions of preslotta figures, but many others too). But after that, I think you often dip from the Renaissance heights of late preslotta and early slotta to a kind of Baroque and then Rococo stage. I'd guess it's to do with the freedom afforded by the slotta tab, which led to less restrained poses and thus more cartooniness or just general extravagance. I can think of a few Citadel designers whose preslotta work I prefer to their later stuff.

If I was offered my choice of any 50 Citadel figures from any period (i.e. eBay without the price gouging!), I reckon I'd be selecting very heavily from the mid-80s, on either side of the slotta divide, with only a few outliers from earlier or later.

On the "rot", though: I do think Ravening Hordes marks a transition from a game characterised by unfettered imagination to one in which selection from lists became paramount. Early scenarios - like Thistlewood, for example - had much more in the way of varied and interesting forces (orcs led by a hill giant, accompanied by ghouls, trolls and skeletons, for example). If I remember correctly, Ravening Hordes had a disclaimer at the start saying "you don't have to play it this way". But we all did ...

So I see it as marking the transition from an RPG-influenced, free-wheeling, imaginative game to one that was slightly less so in most respects. After RH, battle reports and official scenarios tended to feature somewhat more homogenous armies than in those early glory days!

[Elbows]

While I grew up a 40K guy, I always admired Warhammer Fantasy...while acknowledging there was no way in hell I was buying, let alone painting, 30-40 miniatures back when everything was metal and I was 10-11 years old.

Fast forward and I started watching battle reports, and never cared for the rules...but the classic Warhammer fantasy setting was still hugely appealing.  I'm happy to now play a game (of my own invention) which lets me play in that world...even if we're not using the rules or all the models.

I've less than zero interest in the AoS side of things - both lore-wise, visually, etc.  Absolutely not my style.

[v_lazy_dragon]

I'm happy to now play a game (of my own invention) which lets me play in that world...even if we're not using the rules or all the models.

I do this too, using a modified version of the LOTRSBG rules

[Hobgoblin]

I had a skim of Vengeance of the Lichemaster last night, and it crystallised everything I love about really old-school Warhammer. One of the factions is a group of warrior monks, the leader of which is a cyborg with a mechanical hand who has just built ... a Dalek!

That's the glorious sort of thing that went into decline after the army books, I think.

I was also struck by the skirmish focus: for example, the warrior monks can form into units, but they can also just operate as individuals. The Skaven come in units of 20, but these can be broken down into units of 10, and so on.

[Duncan McDane]

Interesting take about fluff. At the time ( WFB 4th edition ) I did like to read the fluff but I've found quickly afterwards a setting in which the game is what tells me a lot more about the game and what is "appropriate" and what not in order to have a good game. And tbh, to learn the fluff from a gazillion games and rules sets, no thanks. Give me a setting, a short intro and that's fine. Characters, lay-out - other than a simple world map, events and history of the world, no, not for me.

[jon_1066]

Interesting take about fluff. At the time ( WFB 4th edition ) I did like to read the fluff but I've found quickly afterwards a setting in which the game is what tells me a lot more about the game and what is "appropriate" and what not in order to have a good game. And tbh, to learn the fluff from a gazillion games and rules sets, no thanks. Give me a setting, a short intro and that's fine. Characters, lay-out - other than a simple world map, events and history of the world, no, not for me.

But at the time this was the great thing about Warhammer.  It grew organically from very vague beginnings.  Characters and places were fleshed out, a history was hinted at, depending on what interested one of the design studio at the time it would appear as a setting or scenario.  The setting grew with you.

[Pattus Magnus]

And then some wanker decided to blow it up, because portals and alternate universes are cool (they’re not, actually, just lazy plot development), and it opened up more marketing opportunities.

[Elbows]

Interesting take about fluff. At the time ( WFB 4th edition ) I did like to read the fluff but I've found quickly afterwards a setting in which the game is what tells me a lot more about the game and what is "appropriate" and what not in order to have a good game. And tbh, to learn the fluff from a gazillion games and rules sets, no thanks. Give me a setting, a short intro and that's fine. Characters, lay-out - other than a simple world map, events and history of the world, no, not for me.

But I think that's actually why earlier Warhammer (and by extension, 40K) were far better at this.  Before they tried to monetize every word (literally), they used to produce solid fluff/lore that was very open-ended, and simple.  They'd say in a timeline "The Battle of X"...but you'd find nothing about it elsewhere.  You'd read "King _____ defeats the Skaven"...and have no idea who King ____ was.  You'd know he was a King of the Empire and he beat some Skaven, but that was it.  This meant you could decide...you could game it out, you could make your army from that tid-bit and design a whole campaign around it.

I've criticized GW heavily because they're doing the criminal thing of explaining...everything.  The earlier days in both franchises things were hinted at, mentioned as if stuff was common knowledge, and there were plenty of mysteries intentionally left unexplained.  Over the years GW has felt compelled to erase these mysteries and fill them with ham-fisted garbage lore to sell some new faction/model/hero/etc.

You know when Necrons were the coolest?  When they were an unexplained emerging menace...an unthinking, uncaring robot menace.  Now they're awkwardly tied to every other race in 40K, they have goofy characters, it's like a bad sitcom written in space.

Old GW writers (during the 90's when the company was all proper game nerds, and not a massive investor-driven corporation) knew the right amount of fluff.  Almost as you describe in your post - a few names, a few maps, a couple lines about what motivates them, etc.  Now...if you see a special AoS character somewhere there is a novel about how he got the gem he's wearing...who made it, out of what...the mine they got the material from...what it signifies...why it's red...and why it's important...and why it's going to end the world.

[Daeothar]

I could not agree more!

I've expanded on this before, but I was always really intrigued by the Horus Heresy, as described in the booklet that came with the Space Marine game back in the day.

It was something mythical, something that only fragments of were passed on through 10,000 years of history. It was a distant past in which anything would have been possible, but was just not explained ad nauseum.

Then the Horus Heresy novels came out and at  first, I was thrilled. Then I found out that they changed significant parts, but hey; that could be distortion through time, right? But pretty soon, every little tidbit was explained and the cool mystery was gone. Completely. Replaced by increasingly mediocre novels that I gave up on after a while. In hindsight, if I had the choice, I would have kept it in its mythical state.

And then there's the fact that an open universe where anything could happen and your painted armies would be able to exist in their unique form somewhere between the thinly mentioned canon facts is now gone too. Because now, with each and every thing/event/individual explained in detail, there is no more room for creativity and individuality.

Everything has been pre-chewed and determined. This coincides with the advent of plastic kits that are very much multipart, but also very much monopose; there is no room anymore to kitbash and convert (easily). It might be a coincidence (or not), but it does fit in with the overall state of GW games...

And then some wanker decided to blow it up, because portals and alternate universes are cool (they’re not, actually, just lazy plot development), and it opened up more marketing opportunities.

That's because in the end, the entire WHFB line combined made less profit for GW than the sales of the Space Marine Tactical Squad box. And this happened because they had developed themselves into a corner; the existing player base already had full armies and beginners stayed away because of the daunting prospect of having to build a full army to play the game. Result: no sales.

So they decided to start over, with a unique setting which they could IP the heck out of, and the playing styles would be accomodating to both beginners (small model count, skirmish) and veterans (large armies, complex rules), so players could grow into the game.

It's a sound decision, from a business perspective. But that is not mine, and I still lament the loss of the Old World, warts and all...

Here's a Youtube link to a clip by Olden Daemon, who explained this much more eloquently and detailed than I ever could:

[Belligerentparrot]

I also dislike the overly-explained setting these days. Though it has some weird elisions - I hear one main appeal of Inq28 is that so much of day-to-day life on an Imperial world is left up to us to imagine, just hints and partial insights and richly suggestive artwork in the rulebooks.

Black Library novels seem really popular but for me they really over-explain the setting. Never managed to finish one, will happily die before I pick up another one.

It is interesting to see GW (sort-of) using that overly-explained setting as a way of going back to something more open-ended. I'm thinking of the worldwide campaigns they run to determine "what happens next" on some specific storyline. They couldn't do that without the very granular fluff. It isn't the same as what Hobgoblin is talking about, but it is allowing the player-base to collectively add to the worldbuilding in a way. I don't follow it, so I've no idea if those results really get incorporated into the official fluff but in principle they could be.

[anevilgiraffe]

Mediocre Hobbies did an unboxing vid of the new Kill Team box set - 7 marines vs 7 nurgle marines, with prepainted MDF scenery...

I think it's meant as a starter/introductory set as he was going on about it being the lowest price and something about 1 of each faction being a rare mini. But the MDF terrain wasn't particularly impressive (it looked very well done, but looked like something from a toddlers playset) and although I've never bought Kill Team, but always thought the selling point was the terrain, so I hope this doesn't become a new norm.

https://youtu.be/ao-X3fUwocU?si=8a7MaQwFpDzLSPLI