The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[weismonsters]

That is all fine. I would not deny that LAF is a very worthwhile forum with lots of great hobby-related stuff. in fact i logged back on thinking to somehow edit the previous post.

But I still think i would like to find another place where this sort of thing is discussed and not all relegated to one thread. I grew up collecting the old warhammer stuff and although now i collect and paint minis from other companies (including some excellent LAF minis i bought recently), it is this stuff i am mostly interested in discussing.

[Captain Blood]

I think the point is that you can start threads about GW figures and games in the relevant section of the forum - which most of the time is going to be Fantasy adventures or Future Wars / sci-fi. You can start as many of these as you like if the topic is to do with figures, gaming, painting or modelling, etc.

But all discussion of GW as an entity, their pricing, marketing, practices and policies, will henceforth be corralled in this single sticky topic - rather than multiple topics every few days, all essentially knocking GW for their latest unpopular product / price / marketing ploy / whatever. It's so boring to see the same topic endlessly recycled time after time after time. At least now it will all be in one place, so those of us who don't give a monkeys about GW, know where to avoid 

[weismonsters]

I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".

[Vermis]

?!?

I don't think anyone's trying to 'bully' anyone else. (For what purpose? And whose thread is he doing it in?) A bit of ribbing and relief, maybe. Thicker skin, matey! This isn't frothers, but it ain't warseer either.

I think I can see Captain Blood's viewpoint. If you've never paid much attention to GW; if you've been out of it for ages; or take it on your own terms without getting caught up and chewed up by the hype and cult (getting plenty of satisfaction from other games in any case), the complaints of the steady stream of disgruntled fans and fresh 'exes' can start to seem old and samey. A bit pointless and... tiresome, really. The regular moans about the the company (pricing, theme, models, etc.) have been going on for, what? 20-30 years?
I enjoy a good whinge about GW myself (as do you, from the looks of things ) but I've definitely felt like that in a few instances. Sometimes the situation even starts to look like some kind of abusive relationship, and the frustration increases with it - "Why do you stay with that company if you're always complaining about it and it treats you so badly? Kick that cheese to the kerb and get yourself a real game!"

Ahem. Anyway, as mentioned, this is the thread where most of that 'discussion' goes now. I can't blame anyone for their cheers that it leaves the sci-fi and fantasy boards a bit freer to focus on more productive or positive matters, GW-related or otherwise.

Talking about hype, cults, and Warseer: a couple of decent posts here. (Including the quote)

[Captain Blood]

I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".

Well I find endless discussion of what's wrong with Games Workshop tiresome, and most of it is repetitive and pointless, so I think blithering is a reasonable word for it.

But if you enjoy that sort of discussion, then you can do it in this thread to your heart's content. But thankfully, we will no longer have to put up with new threads every few days or weeks, raking over the same old moans and groans. That is a very good thing for LAF, which has always been a positive, constructive, good natured place.

[Andym]

I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".

I would agree with the good Captain and Vermis. I believe it's not bullying! What we're trying to prevent weismonsters, I think, is the likes of threads where someone has put in great deal of work painting, building and converting GW stuff only for a thread commenting on said stuff to turn into talking about the ills of Games Workshop. Personally I think it's more respectful to the people doing the work.

I'm not sure if you made a wee mistake in thinking ALL things GW, eg the painting of GW minis, was barred from LAF, it's only GW 'bashing that's to go on here.

[Prof.Witchheimer]

Well, weismonsters, this is like other guys said, nobody is thinking of banning GW topics. Everything can stay and that won't be changing. You are here since a few weeks, I'm  here since the beginning (being the guy behind LAF ) and since seven years I was reading  almost every week again and again the same about GW "look, they have made shit again, look they're too expensive, they're mad, they're bla-bla".

Actually I'm not negative about GW, having some WHFB armies and lots of 40K stuff, their books, WDs and so on and I was starting my gaming career playing Warhammer. If you would care to take a look at my older blog (http://witchhunter.net) so you would see what I mean.

But what I like is not the ranting/bashing side of the GW hobby, and this forum has got surely about a hundred GW-bashing topics already. Isn't really not enough? So I've decided to deploy this last one thread. So you can still talk about their horrible prices or whatever you like to talk to about but with only limitation to this one place. If you are after showing miniatures, talking about GW miniatures, talking about GW games so feel free to start threads how many you need and like, we don't mind it at all.

Now, if you still think LAF is a wrong forum for you and you need your freedom to have lots of GW bashing topics, so maybe you're right, it's the wrong forum for this. But maybe you would like to give it a chance and try it here a bit longer, for some reason I think it's not that bad here

[Conquistador]

As a long time 3rd sigma level critic I think this thread is a good idea.

Please feel free to remind me of this thread if I go off topic on a GW thread.

The problem with GW threads is that GW becomes like religion and politics - very important to many people and very personal (for example, criticizing the Archbishopric's actions in Saint Louis vis-a-vis an independent Roman Catholic church in the area is a discussion that 99% of my co-workers can be involved with comfortably but one person becomes "emotional" and so we have dropped that subject in our inter-cube conversations.) 

While we have not had an actual "war" over GW, unlike religion and politics, some of the threads have indeed become "predictable" and "tiresome."  Certain posters make me seem like a GW fanboy and that is not productive to the forum.

Gracias,

Glenn

[cheetor]

You could try the wd confrontation rules? Been flicking through the wd 100's and stumbled across them. Nice and weighty and who doesn't like D100 equipment and trade tables! .

I was actually looking through those recently in order to find illustrations of caryatids - I want to add one or two to my 40k skirmish stuff.  The core of the Confrontation rules is identical to "Inquisitor".  While many enjoy that level of complexity, I like fast and simple games rather than games that involve large modifier charts and the like, so its not for me (even though I reread the Inquisitor rulebook recently too).

Complex/ridiculous/funny/extreme equipment and trade tables are always good for a laugh though

yeah but the Scenery in that Set are the ugliest Pieces they're selling 

Yep.  They dont look like actual scenery pieces at all really, more like something off the cover of Skeletors solo album

the most ridiculous Scenery Piece ever 
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390086a

You know, I actually like that one.  The massive skulls on the side of the observatory are awful, but I think that model is quite fun, in a Tim Burton sort of way.  A lot more useful than flying spiral staircases on fire anyway

[Diakon]

Complex/ridiculous/funny/extreme equipment and trade tables are always good for a laugh though

Bring back Anti-Plant Grenades. 

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

You know, I actually like that one.  The massive skulls on the side of the observatory are awful, but I think that model is quite fun, in a Tim Burton sort of way.  A lot more useful than flying spiral staircases on fire anyway

  Funny that you say that.In my perception GW has moved away from Grimdark into something abstract i.e. Rivet Wars,that Malifaux Spin off with the creepy Dolls or SDE  The Dreadfleet Stuff in particular is very Burtonesque 

on another Note: That Wizard of OZ Remake was so disappointing,Raimi makes a Burton Film with James Franco in a Johnny Depp Role 

[weismonsters]

Regarding the above controversies, I thank those who responded constructively for their time and comments. I am tempted to continue trying to put my point of view but I can tell that I am not going to win so i will call it a day.

Cheetor, I am surprised to learn that the Inquisitor rules are based on Confrontation system- is Inquisitor a roleplay type game?

I have been recently been thinking about those Confrontation rules. I liked the complexity of the rules insofar as they were making things more realistic in some sense, to-hit probability varying continuously with range, powerful weapons almost always causing some kind of wound to a human rather than bouncing off miraculously and so on. I keep thinking i will have a go at writing some rules like that one day, just for my own entertainment as much as anything else.

Complex rules were quite the thing when i was a kid. Most of the GW games were complicated. Also some others out there. I remember spending hours to resolve a single battletech duel between two mechs using solaris VII rules and enjoying it a lot. A while back i read an interview by Ian Livingstone where he stated the complexity of the rules as one of the attractive features of games in and of itself, at least to the target audience he had in mind. Confrontation was produced whilst there was stilll that mentality in GW i think. The downside for them was that a game so slow will only involve a handfull of miniatures. Maybe this is why it was never finished, or maybe they decided it was just too slow.

There is a lot to be said for fast streamlined systems too, just not quite my cup of tea (having said that I did enjoy the card-based system of Gears of War where orders cards doubled up as wound counters- totally unrealistic but super efficient game mechanic).

Vermis- I had a look at that post on another site you linked to. I agree it is interesting. The article talks about training people to think a certain way. Sounds a bt extreme to me but maybe it is right*. It is certainly true that the first thing a person sees always tends to introduce a psychological bias and everything else tends to be subconciously referred to it. If peoples first experience of the hobby is GW they will tend to compare everything that comes after too it. For example, peoples ideas about what is a bargain is strongly affected by the first price they hear quoted, even if it is totally random number. That is called "framing" I think.


* As an edit i add this- just had a look at the introduction section of WHFB 3rd edition, and it is quite striking. They tell us that Warhammer is more than just a game, and a lot of work must be put into it to earn the sort of respect afforded to GW celebrities of which they give a long list. they do not quite go as far as to say that Warhammer is a lifestyle, but it is implied there. Later they discuss what sort of furniture the gamer should consider buying... I agree "cult marketing" is a good name for it.

[cheetor]

Cheetor, I am surprised to learn that the Inquisitor rules are based on Confrontation system- is Inquisitor a roleplay type game?

Basically yes.  Its a game designed to be played in a narrative fashion with a GM.  The in game mechanics of Inquisitor are the same as those for Confrontation as printed in White Dwarf in 1990 or (cant remember exactly right now).  Confrontation is the same game as Inquisitor mechanically speaking IIRC.  Neither game is really what I am looking for these days, but they are fun reads for fans of the 40k setting.

There is a lot to be said for fast streamlined systems too, just not quite my cup of tea (having said that I did enjoy the card-based system of Gears of War where orders cards doubled up as wound counters- totally unrealistic but super efficient game mechanic).

I love that mechanic in the Gears boardgame, its great fun to use.  The "realism" that I am looking for in a system is a cinematic sort of realism.  The actions=wounds aspect of the Gears of War boardgame is just a mechanic for conveying peril, like music in a film.  I like not to get too bogged down in the minutiae of what these things represent as long as holistically the game feels to me like I feel that it should.  In game "realism" is in the eye of the beholder and dense rulesets do not make things more or less realistic as far as I am concerned, but YMMV etc.

Anyway thats a bit OT.  Inquisitor is mechanically essentially the same game as Confrontation and is a hybrid of role playing game and tabletop skirmish.

[weismonsters]

a mechanic for conveying peril, like music in a film. 

Totally agree. It creates the right atmosphere, you are getting shot up, and your options are decreasing and the world is closing in on you. It creates a realsitic sense of drama and in that sense it is realistic.

[Lord of Jerwood]

I know this is not strictly not GW but can anyone help me to trace theses. I believe they were made by someone called doc thunder but can find anything beyond 2009.