The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[joroas]

...and the push to do those massive tank games that no historical gamer would dream of doing in 28mm......

[beefcake]

When they first brought out that basilisk tank I though it was ridiculous, even back when GW was all I knew. The angle on a gun the big? Wtf. And now the flyers that zoom around the table. I prefer these games as infantry type games, small speeders and bikes yep, but anything more than that should be held back for Epic, oh what, can't do that now

[carlos13th]

I just don't see a place for anything bigger than a tank in 28mm. Certainly not flyers.

[Ray Rivers]

As for the GW background being immature I agree 110%. (see previous posts.) I also will add its a background from an era that has disappeared off the face of the earth. 

any student of modern history will tell you the 80's was under a very different world view and had a very different outlook to what we have today. If the world blowing up in a thermonuclear fireball was a horse race when I was 13 I would of been hard put not to put some swag on it running first. You had the utter nihilism of punk rock (everything is fucked anyway so lets smash it up and be done with it.) and I might add for many a nice black and white world view of us and them because the lines were so clear cut be it socially or politically. The 40K background is a child of those times. Other kids were OGRE, TW2000, cyberpunk and tomorrow the world. Grimdark was the order of the day.

Modern Sci fi backgrounds tend to to be very different and reflect more current concerns.

In fact going a step further the 40k background is tied to what was popular with the youth back then. Its full of Heavy metal punk and goth stuff. (with the orcs being a nod to hooligans with titles like 'ere we go.') with lashings of what was considered naughty back then like demons (keep in mind D&D's makers TSR was in court in the US defending itself against accusations it caused people to commit suicide and jack chick comics warned you hell awaited anyone foolish enough to play a magic user. It was a different world.)

Its all dated and silly now ...

^ THIS.

Our perception of TODAY and the impact of technology is changing the way we view tomorrow.

While the WH40K universe was a wonderful place a decade or so ago, as each day passes it becomes more and more counter-intuitive and illogical.

[joroas]

... and does anyone think the Empire are the good guys anymore, surely the Tau have the moral high ground nowadays....

[knoxville]

The advert sounds like a great job opportunity and sums up 50% of my current job in international fashion retail consultancy. Imho anyone saying the advert sounds like desperation or a price drop would drive customers back into stores has clearly absolutely no clue how retail works. I've worked with companies of which products 90% of the people I know say they're way too expensive, but they even increased their prices, improved the customer experience a lot and increased their revenue to a previously unimaginable amount.

Success in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience, it's as little about prices as salaries are the only motivating factor of employees. It's important to a certain degree, but just one part of bigger puzzle. GW is no Walmart or Aldi, they're not selling life essential goods. They're the deli food boutique around the corner which is unfortunately driven by shareholders and happened to have lots of success in the late 90s, early 00s. If I think about the experiences in my local GW, I see lots of possibilities for improvement, compared to other retail stores.

Also, aside from the relieving feeling someone gets from a price rant on the internet, think about the % of how many of the complaining people are still customers. Even if GW would decrease prices, the majority would not come back. So in the end, they would not make any more money.

[Vermis]

TBH its time that mantle of no good with the girls got binned as its outdated and out of touch.

Fair enough Scurv, but I say 'women-tolerated' rather than 'women-repelling'. For every tale of significant others getting into gaming and especially painting, there are more about 'sneaking minis past the wife'.

I hear you about the original fluff too, but they have been sucking the humour out of it and upping the grimdark. So much so that any OTT moments don't really seem goofy or satirical anymore.

Tbh when people talk about pricing being too high they often mean the cost to field a decent army to actually play the game is to high.

I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much.

[Vermis]

Imho anyone saying the advert sounds like desperation or a price drop would drive customers back into stores has clearly absolutely no clue how retail works.

Well, that makes it us and GW.

And I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much.

[Modhail]

The Empire has never been the good guys...
Just look at the 1st and 2nd ed background. They were clearly portrayed as the extreme of a fascist absolute police state. It was just the only means of survival for the human race available and achievable, the alternative was slavery to aliens and extinction. In Rogue Trader, Space marines were psychopaths and violent criminals that got round up and brainwashed to be controllable, total terror troops.
But somewhere along the line that was retconned, and the reader only got the Imperial propaganda presented in the background writing; Empire are the good guys, Space Marines are noble warrior-heroes, etc.  But at the same time the visual Grimdark got cranked up, I guess to maintain some sort of "nihilism-quota".

Tau, good guys? Join us voluntarily or be subjugated. Either way, end up as an client-race, seen as inferior to the Tau themselves.
Okay, they are nicer about their conquering than, say, the Imperium or Orks, and they don't eat as much people as the Tyranids, but still...  


I have to agree with Scurv on the setting... They filed off all the rough edges, let it get stale and dated, and sprinkled it with artifical flavoring (skull-shaped oddly enough).
In the end, I could almost say that GW's settings have become parodies of themselves. Like Vermis said, the OTT hyperbole is the baseline nowadays.

Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...

[knoxville]

Well, that makes it us and GW.

And I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much.

You are right, but the advert shows GW has acknowledged the problem and tries to face it. Let's just not start to speculate about the outcome

Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...

I agree about the the experience, but they're obviously trying to improve. Don't take it personal, but why do so many people still beat the dead Finecast horse? The are pulling out of it, so they aware of the problems. I wonder if that behaviour is the same for other product discussion on the internet. For every one asking about the new Toyota Prius, are there 2+ pointing out the brake problems of previous ranges and cars catching fire years ago?

I disagree about the quality though. I am not saying they're the only one with a high standard, but they certainly lead the group.

[Vermis]

I've worked with companies of which products 90% of the people I know say they're way too expensive, but they even increased their prices, improved the customer experience a lot and increased their revenue to a previously unimaginable amount.

Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...

Ayup. Like wot I posted back on page 28:

Lack of innovation - as Mace also mentions - is a problem for GW too. And game quality. And treating customers and distributors like ambulatory expendable wallets and despised enemies, respectively. And so on. But number one at the top of the list has got to be the perceived value of the minis and their ever-creeping price tags.

I'm no Theo Paphitis like yourself, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and I'm not blind. I know gamers got burned by GW on more than price, but...

Also, aside from the relieving feeling someone gets from a price rant on the internet, think about the % of how many of the complaining people are still customers.

Can't think about the %. I don't know it. Do you know it? But I know that most price rants I see (with caveats about just where I'm looking and whether they're representative or not) involve a lot of people who then rave about what fun they have with the modern proliferation of other, better, cheaper wargames; and/or say they'd buy GW again, or wouldn't have drastically cut their GW spend, if the price per mini or army or book or game entry wasn't so freakin' ridiculous.

And according to what spurred this recent round of GW rhubarb, the % is going down.

[Vermis]

You are right, but the advert shows GW has acknowledged the problem and tries to face it. Let's just not start to speculate about the outcome

I can speculate about a survey into store buying experience when their problem is people not going to their stores.

The are pulling out of it, so they aware of the problems.

And before that, after they pulled the first bubbly, broken failures out of the mould, they tried to (pardon my french) bullshit the customers for quite a while about how fine and high-quality it was. Not to mention upping the price ( ) on what was supposed to be a cost-cutting measure.

Another thing is the fluff has totally eclipsed the game that it is about. I think this was also one of the reasons things just keep getting bigger. The fluff is all about huge amounts of things blowing each other up in planet shaking battles that grind on for years blah blah blah. Hard to tie that to 30 figs and a hover jeep on the table.

Getting back to how to fix things I would suggest the micro games shotgun. Put out 4 small self contained games (with room for expansion) each year and the ones that are a hit put out supps for.

Says to me: 'Epic'.

Although Epic's probably safer as OOP and 'open source'.

Its just the fact you cant get it that stops everyone else saying actually its a bit shit compared to the current stuff.

  Are you including rulesets in that remark?

[Modhail]

As Vermis said.
And to add, at least why I am still miffed about Finecast: Yup, they are pulling out of it, but without as much as an "Oops, sorry" or other acknowledgement to the customers for the poor grade product they had to endure. Plus, what are we getting as a replacement? This. 18 Pound, mono-pose, no extra parts, plastics... Another downgrade in options for once again a higher price.

[Cubs]

As someone who worked in retail for a decade and ended up running a shop of my own, I can state that price is a big factor, especially when there are cheaper alternatives easily available. GW is not a niche any more, there are now some viable alternatives and their arrogance in assuming they had people hooked for life has bitten them in the arse. Bigger companies than they have fallen victim to this sort of complacency in thinking they don't have to continually innovate. 

Anyone who thinks GW make the best miniatures in the market have swallowed their propaganda nicely and clearly don't spend a lot of time checking out the superb works of art (created in metal and suitable resin) by smaller companies. Price is not the sum total of their mistakes, just one of the big ones. The problem is, when a customer breaks the habit because they just can't afford it (part of it is simply not having enough money to keep the hobby going and part of it is feeling like an idiot when the rest of the world is laughing at your gullibility), then they are less likely to get hooked again.

Having said that, if GW only lowered their prices and did nothing else they would get a lot more business from the fringe collectors or even those dedicated GW'ers who want lots more toyz for their money. Would it offset the losses in profit per item? Well, that's where you have to be good at your sums beforehand.

[pixelgeek]

Tbh when people talk about pricing being too high they often mean the cost to field a decent army to actually play the game is to high. Some models are far more over costed than others. Some are cheaper than competitors and some are far more expensive but in almost every instance 40k ends up the more expensive game to play.

I actually ran the numbers a while back when I was shocked at the price of a new Space Marine release

http://zac.calgarygamers.net/tabletop/alternative/what-can-you-get-for-a-box-of-space-marines

Core troops for armies can be had for a decent price. Everything else is priced based on the rarity in a force so the prices are all over the place.

That contributes to their games being so expensive. It isn't the two or three boxes of core troops its the $70 or 80 for a Special troop choice or $25 for an HQ model.