The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Gibby]

I used to like warhammer because when my opponent showed up with a dragon, I had an army of poor bastards with halberds, cannons and grit to fight it. I guess you can say that it had a certain grounded-ness to its fantastical side. A grounded-ness it was easier to identify with, and create stories about. Now its all about big huge heroes fighting big huge monsters. The problem with spectactle though, is that it looses its effect if everything is spectacular.

This exactly. The last few years has seen them turn the Warhammer world's aesthetic in a direction I hugely dislike. Now with these new (fucking shit) miniatures and this new fluff, there really is nothing to relate to. Gods/Demi-Gods fighting other Gods/Demi-Gods really doesn't interest me at all.

[Vladimir Raukov]

Meh, if I don't end up liking the new stuff, I'll play what I've got where I like with who I like. If I buy more GW stuff, so be it. If I don't, there's plenty of plastic crack out there. Less time spent complaining leads to more painting for me.

[Brummie]

I've been informed that the WHFB stuff will not be discontinued and you'll still be able to buy all the original factions minis.

[Momotaro]

The proximal problem is that GW are putting up to half their effort into a game that brings in 1/12 of their revenue.  And specifically, takes up half the space in those high-cost, fixed-lease shops that are not even making back their costs.  The actual manufacture and distribution of GW minis is wildly profitable (costs are £0.19 in the £).

The deeper reasons?  I'd have to agree that costs and army size are big culprits.  

The competition sells full games MUCH cheaper now, boardgames got REALLY good (components, expansions and lightness of rules), Kickstarters - when they work - offer much more bang for a big spend.  

No marketing or advertising.

Learning the wrong lessons from the Chapterhouse court case (total paranoia) and the LotR "bubble" years (made a mint but didn't plan for the end of the free advertising).

This new game?  Minis don't do it for me, but I can see their appeal.  It's a very "modern" fantasy aesthetic.  I'll be giving the rules a look though.  And I honestly hope they have a success with it.

[Timbor]

TBH, I think this will likely be profitable for them.

I live in North America, so medieval/renaissance european history is not really taught here unless you seek it out specifically.   There is no personal connection to it - you can't drive a couple hours around and find physical evidence of that era. I like the landsknecht look now because I got into WFB as a kid and then learned about it later.  However, as a kid I always was kinda miffed that there were never the 'good' equivalent of chaos knights - I wanted paladins!

Had I been 12 years old and seen this, I would have been excited about it most likely.  This is just like today's movies - lots of OTT details and such with a debatable amount of substance. 

I would say as long as GW doesn't botch the rules and they don't go too crazy with the pricing, this will sell better than WFB in its current form. (Albeit, that may be a tall order since this is GW we are talking about).

I do not like this version of Fantasy, but as has been mentioned, there are lots of alternatives.  Also, Kings of War is immensely fun.  As a friend of mine said - it is everything he wanted WFB to be. Fun, straightforward, and fast!

[Nord]

I don't buy the IP argument at all. If they wanted to make some new unique IP that was un-copyable, why have they released a Hordes/Warcraft range. I would not be surprised if they are accused of copyright theft! Blaming copyers for the death of fantasy is just a smokescreen.

GW greed (shareholder responsibilities) killed Warhammer Fantasy. They redesigned the game (8th edition) to require the player to build big blocks of infantry, to survive in the new environment of everything-dies (basically, shooting, melee became twice as potent as previous versions, and magic upped the power level too). At the same time, boxsets were re-packaged, from 15 or 20 figures down to 10, with price increases to boot. Then when those failed to sell, they introduced monsters and other big kits, with associated super killy rules. The when they failed to sell, they upped the power even more with Storm of Magic and then End Times.

I realise that the company has to make a profit, but they backed themselves into a corner from which there was no escape. If you believe the figures, the revenue on the fantasy range was about a fifth of the total. That's still over £20 million per annum! But it was not enough. They would much rather have the same effect that space marines have, which apparently generate over half the revenue.

If you like marines and their ilk, the future is bright. But even if there are mass battle rules to come in the next few weeks, the prices are only going to be on the 40k scale, so I can't see a future in terms for it. As an alternative to Warmahordes, I can see it doing well. As a replacement for WHFB, then it's over to mantic or Shieldwolf or Hail Sauron or whoever else can come up with a ruleset that sticks with the community.

32 years, a good run, but time to say goodbye. 

[Momotaro]

That's still over £20 million per annum! But it was not enough. They would much rather have the same effect that space marines have, which apparently generate over half the revenue.

I believe WFB's share has dropped to 8% in recent years.  Still up to £10 million, which anyone would be happy with, but the difference between GW and their competitors is GW's chain of shops.  

If WFB is doing that badly, then half the (already paid-for) shop space is wasted - they NEED something that sells to get the shops back into profit.

You're right on the reasons WFB is doing so badly, and right to say that it's purely GW's fault they've backed themselves into a corner.  So this is it - this is their answer.  Fantasy marines and a series of games that is rumoured to scale up.

[Tactalvanic]

Well to be honest the only thing that's got me worried is I have the tune of "Yellow Submarine" going round and round in my head, but with different words, based around "Yellow SigMarines".

Regardless the actually reasons - profit/loss, ip, competition, re-sellers, bits sellers, customers, their shops, independent retailers, its their problem. I can continue buying other their or other companies stuff, if theirs is either unobtainably expensive, not actually any good, overdesigned, etc, does not matter, plenty other good stuff around.

Myabe see what they themselves sight in the next annual/quarterly report thingy.

Perhaps I should have had less wine with my Barbecue today...

Nope, perhaps it should have been MORE, that's something I can fix, let me go do that 

 Yellow Sigmarines, yellow Sigmarines, hmhmhm..

[FramFramson]

I've been informed that the WHFB stuff will not be discontinued and you'll still be able to buy all the original factions minis.

It would be folly for them to discontinue the old sets since one of the primary uses is other people using GW bits for conversions and other games. IP issues or not, that's still a huge part of the WFB revenue stream.

Were they to go whole hog on the new stuff and discontinue the old kits entirely I suspect the overall sales for WFB would crater.

[axabrax]

+1

We have had some big WFB clubs in my area and I have never ever seen anyone playing with knock off models. The reality is that people loved the old models.

In my opinion the problem is bad, overly complex rules, the high  number of models take forever to paint, and the ridiculously high prices. The models and the background are what made the game awesome and that's what they killed. One seriously has to wonder if people making decisions at this company even play the game.

By the way,  regarding the comment that North Americans aren't taught European history, I live in North America, and in colleges in the U.S,  History of Western Civilization is a required class, and includes quite a lot of European history, so that is absolutely not true here.

I don't buy the IP argument at all. If they wanted to make some new unique IP that was un-copyable, why have they released a Hordes/Warcraft range. I would not be surprised if they are accused of copyright theft! Blaming copyers for the death of fantasy is just a smokescreen.

GW greed (shareholder responsibilities) killed Warhammer Fantasy. They redesigned the game (8th edition) to require the player to build big blocks of infantry, to survive in the new environment of everything-dies (basically, shooting, melee became twice as potent as previous versions, and magic upped the power level too). At the same time, boxsets were re-packaged, from 15 or 20 figures down to 10, with price increases to boot. Then when those failed to sell, they introduced monsters and other big kits, with associated super killy rules. The when they failed to sell, they upped the power even more with Storm of Magic and then End Times.

I realise that the company has to make a profit, but they backed themselves into a corner from which there was no escape. If you believe the figures, the revenue on the fantasy range was about a fifth of the total. That's still over £20 million per annum! But it was not enough. They would much rather have the same effect that space marines have, which apparently generate over half the revenue.

If you like marines and their ilk, the future is bright. But even if there are mass battle rules to come in the next few weeks, the prices are only going to be on the 40k scale, so I can't see a future in terms for it. As an alternative to Warmahordes, I can see it doing well. As a replacement for WHFB, then it's over to mantic or Shieldwolf or Hail Sauron or whoever else can come up with a ruleset that sticks with the community.

32 years, a good run, but time to say goodbye. 

[Brummie]

I did like the Old Empire Models, the first plastic sets were brilliant as well! Still have a load of them in the loft, as they are spot on for historicals as well.

However the newer Empire figures were just plain awful imo. Although other factions stuff definitly improved looks wise, Empire just went down hill and stayed there.

[Momotaro]

Regardless the actually reasons - profit/loss, ip, competition, re-sellers, bits sellers, customers, their shops, independent retailers, its their problem.

You can turn that round and say that a company has to make what it knows will sell.  If that's not to your liking, that's your problem   Sure you're heartbroken...

Rumour is there will be free army lists for existing armies and a free rules outline for the new game.  And if the current models are still going to be sold, folks can complete armies and continue to play older editions.

And people who don't buy are not anyone's market.

Don't get me started on Yellow Submarine - when I was learning Japanese, we translated a lot of song lyrics for practice and then had to sing them.  Guess what my worst effort was?

[Timbor]

In my opinion the problem is bad, overly complex rules, the high  number of models take forever to paint, and the ridiculously high prices. The models and the background are what made the game awesome and that's what they killed. One seriously has to wonder if people making decisions at this company even play the game.

By the way,  regarding the comment that North Americans aren't taught European history, I live in North America, and in colleges in the U.S,  History of Western Civilization is a required class, and includes quite a lot of European history, so that is absolutely not true here.

I heard it said before that they specifically hire people who do not play the game... possibly to keep them from leaking information?  I dunno.

Note that you said College.  First off, not everyone goes to College, and most people (ie the target audience) would get into this hobby before college so I don't see how effective that would be in making people relate to the WFB setting.  Also, I doubt that every single degree in college requires a western civilization course.  Perhaps your arts/english/history degree will, but science, engineering, nursing, sports medicine, business, math, etc?  I doubt it.

In high school and university my focus was on science, and some languages.  I very easily avoided such history classes because I did not need/want to take them for my preferred career path.

[Tactalvanic]

You can turn that round and say that a company has to make what it knows will sell.  If that's not to your liking, that's your problem   Sure you're heartbroken...

True 

Will sit back and see, whatever they come out with, and the fact the models can be easily reused for 40k, Ok.

Don't get me started on Yellow Submarine - when I was learning Japanese, we translated a lot of song lyrics for practice and then had to sing them.  Guess what my worst effort was?

Just can't get Sigmarines out of my head, and thinking color schemes, silly I know. One of those days.

 

[Momotaro]

Will sit back and see, whatever they come out with, and the fact the models can be easily reused for 40k, Ok.

Good advice - I shall take it  

Just can't get Sigmarines out of my head, and thinking color schemes, silly I know. One of those days.

And their enemies, the Blue UltraMeanies