The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Vladimir Raukov]

hmmmm, not sold on it - needs, I don't know, maybe both should have wings, and a Sigmarine-jetpack maybe and surely some skulls somewhere?


Still he has a BIG hammer.

Any details regarding how many multiparts, and versions/types you can make ?- or is it just one - guess will see on website when it goes up for pre-order/sold out status.,,

oh but the blurb "an age of eternal warfare where epic armies clash across unimaginably vast realms" sounds like there is only war then.. read that somwhere before...

Well he always had a big hammer, I'm not to worried about that. The whole 'everything is terrible forever' has me irked though. For me, warhammer was more a case of 'everything is terrible sometimes, but there are brief occasions of good things happening,' whilst leaving the whole 'everything is terrible forever' situation for 40k and the like.

[Kitsune]

As a casual observer, one of the things I've noticed for some time were the complaints of "Give us something new, why re-hash the same old stuff?"... obviously they eventually listened and now people don't seem to like it much.

 

Its mainly because they went far too far in the opposite direction.

[OSHIROmodels]

Okay...what is that thing that Sigmarl Franz is riding on?

A big pile of hard earned cash...

[Tactalvanic]

Well he always had a big hammer, I'm not to worried about that. The whole 'everything is terrible forever' has me irked though. For me, warhammer was more a case of 'everything is terrible sometimes, but there are brief occasions of good things happening,' whilst leaving the whole 'everything is terrible forever' situation for 40k and the like.

Yup - unlike 40k it was nice to take a break from War! Constant unending etc etc.

Will make it easier to merge the rules together later I guess...

As a casual observer, one of the things I've noticed for some time were the complaints of "Give us something new, why re-hash the same old stuff?"... obviously they eventually listened and now people don't seem to like it much.

 

Don't mind us we like a good moan  

[Vladimir Raukov]

Don't mind us we like a good moan  

Yep, it's like a neverending salt mine here.

[harleyface]

Very Interesting discussion  
Personally i quit GW when they divided undead..
Loved my undead army...has still a special place  
Think i had the same feeling when this happened.
Right now i can see AoS with a who cares feeling...
Maybe it will generate new audience for our hobby..so many people including me started wargaming with GW.So im not angry anymore.
Maybe some people deceid now to play some more hobby dedicated games...
Maybe a new generation of wargamers will start with AoS
For me its a bit like Star Wars.
There are only 3 Movies and the remastered are crap..but if i ask the kids of my friends they love the new movies and remastered...at least we all love Star Wars...
Maybe we are getting old..
No one here can see AoS with the eyes of a beginner.
Maybe GW is doing the right think to generate interest in the hobby (but they definitly loose long time fans and hurt many gamers like me some years ago...)
Sorry for bad english...its hard to write what i mean  

[3 fingers]

Very Interesting discussion  
Personally i quit GW when they divided undead..
Loved my undead army...has still a special place  
Think i had the same feeling when this happened.
Right now i can see AoS with a who cares feeling...
Maybe it will generate new audience for our hobby..so many people including me started wargaming with GW.So im not angry anymore.
Maybe some people deceid now to play some more hobby dedicated games...
Maybe a new generation of wargamers will start with AoS
For me its a bit like Star Wars.
There are only 3 Movies and the remastered are crap..but if i ask the kids of my friends they love the new movies and remastered...at least we all love Star Wars...
Maybe we are getting old..
No one here can see AoS with the eyes of a beginner.
Maybe GW is doing the right think to generate interest in the hobby (but they definitly loose long time fans and hurt many gamers like me some years ago...)
Sorry for bad english...its hard to write what i mean  

Makes perfect sense to me,

[Arlequín]

Don't mind us we like a good moan  

Who doesn't? I'm certainly at the age where if you've nothing to moan about you're probably dead.  

I've never really been captured by fantasy 'battle' gaming, but was almost snared by 40K... it was a close-run thing... however I do sort of see what's going on, I think.

I imagine that GW's legal bill is pretty high, what with all the cease and desists and whatever. They lose money when Joe Public uses proxy figures and get nothing back from tournaments, as (correct me if I'm wrong) they don't run them any more. Over successive editions they have just overcomplicated the rules, made it virtually impossible for Mr (or Master, given their perceived target audience) Average to get in at the bottom without spending a ton of money.

I think someone mentioned the increase in model size earlier, but this doesn't increase production costs overly (it's plastic), but it does sort of stop people using proxies from a visual angle. As nobody else produces in that size of figure, there is no muddying the waters about where the figure you're pirating/converting/making bits for, originated... unless other fantasy companies up-scale their ranges too.

I envision a future where the 'old armies' get up-scaled eventually too, which sort of stops people from using those figures in any other game but Warhammer©. Likewise with scenery, buildings and whatever else.

No tournaments = no need for points. It also covers-up any glaring inequalities, nerfing, buffing or whatever, as you have no points system to compare anything against.  

As for the 'new universe', let's face it, everyone does the human-elves-dwarves-goblins-orks-beastmen Dark Agey-Medieval thing. It is the 'classic' Tolkien-esque 'fantasy trope'. In a way they have stepped more towards their own universe in 40k, with a sort of "This is what came before the flared power armour".

It's kind of a brave step to take, potentially a foolish one, given that so many long term gamers seem to be put out by the possibility of their armies being ditched. From GW's point of view, what have they got to lose? Some of those guys are using models they bought back in the '90s, so where is the profit in that for GW?

On the other hand they are producing a brand new 'fantasy' game trope, which (at this moment in time at least) is still compatible with their existing catalogue, such as it is. Whether that will be enough to draw old gamers back to the fold, or produce a new crop of gamers remains to be seen. Certainly the abrupt pulling of 'End of Times' stuff must have been costly too. It seems one hell of a risk from where I'm sitting though.

Apologies for any inaccuracies in the above... my knowledge of the 'GW Hobby' scene is full of gaping holes. I have to admit though the whole subject of AoS has grabbed my attention, despite my having no interest in the game itself.

[Vermis]

As a casual observer, one of the things I've noticed for some time were the complaints of "Give us something new, why re-hash the same old stuff?"... obviously they eventually listened and now people don't seem to like it much.

 

There are two things I'd say about that:

1, I don't think it's a case of listening to the complaints. (Market research is otiose in a niche, and fans'll buy anything GW puts out, y'know )

2, not all 'something news' are created equal.

GW's revenues overall have been dwindling in the last couple of years, and signs were that the last two editions of WFB (imbalance, randomness, having to buy huge units of ever-more expensive plastic minis) managed to chase and keep away enough gamers to send it to Specialist Games levels of profitability. (It's not just people who're getting old, Harleyface!) It looks like this new game wasn't a result of going to those disappearing fans and asking 'why you no buy warhams?', but simply looking at how much more 40K and space marines in particular were selling than FB, and reshaping FB to be more like that. Not so much of the 'why', especially since this game appears to pile on the imbalance and randomness too.

And in their reshaping they decided to blow up the world. I don't think anyone asked for that. As far as I could see the moans for something new were a reaction to GW's constant rehashing of rules, almost by clockwork, seemingly to sell the same thing all over again rather than to fix things. Along with the static nature of the setting's storyline. A particular sore point in that was the worldwide Storm of Chaos campaign, where GW promised players that their games would change the Warhammer World. GW either didn't get the results they expected, or planned not to change anything at all - either way the status quo was kept, and the storyline was not only kept static, but rewound to just before the beginning of the Storm of Chaos. And there it sat until GW decided to torch the Warhammer World and retconned the SoC invasion into that.
The actual destruction of the world, again, seems to be less about listening to the fans as listening to their wallets. They were going to remake the game from the ground up anyway, so given how the Chapterhouse and Spots the Space Marine cases showed them how copyright and trademarks work in the real world, and just how unique their special snowflakes are, why not turn their generic fantasy setting into something a wee bit more defensible? (Never mind that plenty of folks already call out the similarity of these chunky-armoured giants to various others in other mini games and computer games.)

[Arlequín]

Yes, I can take all that on board and certainly I've tried to work out what 'their plan' was at various stages; I convinced myself there wasn't one.

The only justification I can come up with for the 'mo bigger, 'mo better attitude, is that the guys who have bought into their 'old game' over the years are unlikely to add much to profits. Folks playing with what they already have is not going to increase shareholder dividends, which I don't think anyone could successfully argue that isn't what GW is all about.

I do see that WFB was certainly headed for 'Specialist Games' status though...   

[Knightofspades]

Well I have lost my taste for games workshop stuff after they made "Kills children for pleasure" Malekith a mary sue big damm hero. For not other reason than dark elves looks cooler than high elves I presume.
So its not like I am ever going to buy any of their products again. Sort of how I stopped buying spider man comics after "one more day". I just lost interest.


But I am curious if this will be a success.

The thing that had the warhammer games going imo has always been the cheese. I dont mean the overpower armies or illconcived and stupid rules. But the community always hunting for and discussing new tactics and rules which came out on a regular basis creating an competitive environment where gamers could meet and thrive. Sort of like world of warcraft in the computer game world.

If the new fantasy game provide that with their warscrolls then they probably will succeed. I wonder if you can have different warscrolls in your army with your figures? Sort of a collectible card game of sorts?

[Vermis]

I think someone mentioned the increase in model size earlier, but this doesn't increase production costs overly (it's plastic), but it does sort of stop people using proxies from a visual angle. As nobody else produces in that size of figure, there is no muddying the waters about where the figure you're pirating/converting/making bits for, originated... unless other fantasy companies up-scale their ranges too.

They might've, ten years ago. These days, many still would, probably. But the big fish in the pond isn't looking so healthy anymore; and thanks to getting to grips with the internet and especially crowdfunding, and the success of games like Warmachine and Infinity, the small fry (producers and players) are more confident in doing what they like, without worrying about reference to GW.

But still, since these Sigmarites are fantasy space marines, and some of the khorne guys seem shorter, I'm not so sure that the entire new range will be upscaled. We'll have to see.

I envision a future where the 'old armies' get up-scaled eventually too, which sort of stops people from using those figures in any other game but Warhammer©.

From the sound of things the old armies are being mothballed. Still on sale, for the time being, but kept static, with no new models or rules added. (Which, in the GW attitude of buy-to-stay-current, or buying-is-the-hobby, is almost as good as killing them stone dead) I don't know if that's how it'll stay, but I wouldn't be surprised. They blew up the world all those old armies lived on, after all!

No tournaments = no need for points. It also covers-up any glaring inequalities, nerfing, buffing or whatever,

Or with the new way of field-what-you-like, makes them even glaring. 'Unbound' army organisation (amounting to the same thing) is often seen as one if the biggest curses of 40K 7th ed.

As for the 'new universe', let's face it, everyone does the human-elves-dwarves-goblins-orks-beastmen Dark Agey-Medieval thing. It is the 'classic' Tolkien-esque 'fantasy trope'. In a way they have stepped more towards their own universe in 40k, with a sort of "This is what came before the flared power armour".

I've thought about this before. I'm not so convinced that generic fantasy is such a bust, just because it's generic and everyone can do it, so long as you can do it better than everyone else, in some way, or offer some kind of spin or USP. Not to say it'd do as well as more unique themes and settings, but still, GW did alright with it for years, didn't they?
Personally, I think one of GW's biggest stumbles was that they had and still have the production capabilities, infrastructure, and certain of the design studio to do that, to outsculpt and/or utterly undercut anyone else out there, especially for army building. In that situation, if you have your own proprietary setting and game for gamers to use your minis in, groovy. If not, you're still a good bet for anyone who wants to do their own generic fantasy thing, like Mars Miniatures' excellent mashup of LotR, Warhammer, GoT, DnD etc. in the fantasy board.
But then they did what they're doing with AoS, trying to enforce the use of their minis with their game, in some way. Eventually fostering not only a player base of 100% official, 100% dedicated fans, but also the idea that GW is 'The Hobby', cutting fans off from exposure to anything else. They started to believe their own hype, and their hobby bubble backfired on them. Believing they had a captive audience that would buy and play anything they released, it looks like they stopped caring about affordable minis and half-decent games, and made them unaffordable (or at least rotten value) and unplayable. Now it seems that GW can't understand or don't want to to admit why more and more gamers are getting fed up with it, or are bypassing GW as an introduction to gaming, altogether.

As for other generic fantasy minis, well...

Some of those guys are using models they bought back in the '90s, so where is the profit in that for GW?

The thing is, GW's 'buy for the sake of buying' thing worked pretty well, much as it's painful to admit. People kept expanding their armies, bought the new models GW brought out for them, bought new models and even new armies as rules re-releases made different things more effective or less viable. New kids bought Warhammer minis because that's what their friends, brothers, even their dads had, and old folk returning to their childhoods made a beeline straight for GW, not bothering to look at anything else that sprang up in the meantime. They still do. Just not so much anymore.

To go off on a tangent, as I was saying, as for other generic fantasy: too many sculptors of that seem stuck back in the 90's as it is. Heck, most existing ranges don't seem too much younger than the 90's. Ham hands, mitten fingers, dinner-plate pecs, drainpipe limbs, faces like goldfish, heroic stance. And it all seems to get snapped up and validated by the people who grew up with it, anyway. Bob Naismith still gets requests for his old style, particularly old boy Ronnie Renton calling him in for the kick-off of Mantic's own generic fantasy.  Some oldhammerers are going crazy for Foundry's Warmonger Miniatures, releasing Kev Adam's sculpts that show their 'vintage', even if sculpted yesterday, and leave me completely cold. Fresh, new hobby sculptors are buoyed up by internet interest in their work, and that's great, but it's sometimes quickly followed by minis appearing in webshops, copying those older styles and minis, without enough time and practise to really refine their sculpts and own style. (I'll hold my own hands up here, I think I still have some way to go myself, before I try to make a splash)

You'll get some 'modern' sculpting (diplomatically speaking) from Reaper, Otherworld, Hasslefree, and TBH quite a few others; but selling individual characters for display or for tiny RPG parties and skirmish gangs. And then you've got the likes of Gamezone selling premium proxies for Warhammer, whose UK stockist doesn't stock 'em any more, and whose cheaper resin plans seem to have stalled, and likely won't go anywhere now.
It's almost telling that one of the greatest boosts to fantasy army building in recent years has been the boom in historical plastic sets, particularly Perry Bros. Even Mantic/KoW fans seem to rave about those more than Mantic's own range. As wrong-headed as it is, I see internet passers-by sneering at the (free, streamlined, GW-compatible) KoW rules just because the company's own minis look off. And I've thought myself that for plastic army building, it's a shame two of the best choices are GW's decently sculpted but overpriced minis, and Mantic's decently priced but wonky, odd minis.

In the meantime the (sub)genres of steampunk fantasy, horror, and sleek near-future sci-fi get a shot in the arm from Warmachine, Malifaux and Infinity. IMO not just because they offer a GW-style all-in-one game package, and with generally well-regarded rules, but because the minis are usually very well sculpted and crafted. A bit of 'modern refinement' has gone into them. They can be a bit over-styled in many cases, maybe, and still fairly expensive; but with little of the old rushed-through look, and more easily seen as priced proportionately to the game scale.

So, that whole mad, rambling digression is to say, misfires and prices aside, GW's almost-defunct range is still one of the better fantasy choices for some. Annoying as that is. The basic, simplified choice of generic fantasy is between expensive (and often limited) and... 'old'. I have to think that's having some small effect on the uptake of fantasy by new gamers, at least.

Makes me wonder that with GW seemingly abandoning mass battles (though I have heard rumours about new mass battle rules coming) and with no-one currently offering a really good alternative, will someone step up to occupy the modern-sculpting, 28mm armies, generic fantasy gap? Or will the recent trend towards more 10-15mm (even 6mm) fantasy mass battles gain more traction? (Were 28mm mass battles a long blip propped up by GW and WAB...?)
I still think Mantic could do the former, if they inject some Deadzone/Dreadball quality back into new KoW plastics. Or Shieldwolf, much as their croc-jawed orcs turn me off. There'd have to be a lot of plastic in this day and age, I think, and HIPS at that. Otherwise, it's confirming my feeling that I need to practise more 15mm, and glad that I invested in Yann's 10mm barbars.

Whether that will be enough to draw old gamers back to the fold, or produce a new crop of gamers remains to be seen. Certainly the abrupt pulling of 'End of Times' stuff must have been costly too. It seems one hell of a risk from where I'm sitting though.

Agreed with you there, at least.

Apologies for any inaccuracies in the above... my knowledge of the 'GW Hobby' scene is full of gaping holes.

Just FYI, the 'market research is otiose in a niche', 'the GW hobby is buying GW products', and 'our customers will buy whatever we sell' bits are all actual sayings from GW's upper echelons.

[Momotaro]

I was going to write a long reply to you Vermis, but I agree with everything you say.  Even the stuff about Mantic  

I think AoS is a response to a number of factors in the gaming world, both minis and boardgames/minis hybrid gaming.  There are now a lot of VERY smart starter games out there, many with free/quickstart rules, and Fantasy Flight seems to have got the wallet-bleeding expansion model down to a fine art

To your mention of Warmachine, Infinity and Malifaux, I'd add X-Wing, Star Wars Imperial Assault, Descent, Battlelore, Dropzone Commander.  Some of these games have months and months of gameplay in just the starter set.

Ham hands, mitten fingers, dinner-plate pecs, drainpipe limbs, faces like goldfish

My wife still loves me though  

[Gibby]

Great post, Vermis; a nice summary of how I feel really.

As for those occasional voices popping in to accuse people of just moaning, well, so what? It's a discussion of GW as it currently is, and nobody is being unfair. That a lot of what is being said is negative is caused by GW, not by us. I think if you read between the lines, it's obvious that pretty much everyone "moaning" is just disappointed and fatigued with what GW has become, given what they were and how much they (and their games/worlds) meant to many of us as we grew up. Heck, I have a box of Warhammer fantasy novels in the loft... that's how much I loved the setting.

[Tactalvanic]

+1 well said Vermis, well said and thats from someone with far to many fantasy miniatures, from the 90s, to much mantic and more.

We shall see what we see, and maybe it will be good. Stranger things happen...

As for GW's

Just FYI, the 'market research is otiose in a niche', 'the GW hobby is buying GW products', and 'our customers will buy whatever we sell' bits are all actual sayings from GW's upper echelons.

Yes, absolutely true and if anyone has not had the pleasure

http://investor.games-workshop.com/

Makes for great entertainment over a cup of tea, and helps shine a light on things.

My wife still loves me though 

Yes I think the same of my wife too. She is just great, and even lets me play with toy soldiers sometimes when I am not working. 

I best get some sleep as I might have to go in the local WarHammer GW shop or whatever its called to get a big golem figure with a free magazine stuck on it. Maybe. as suggested might make a good large construct for Frostgrave.