Dunedain, Elves, Orcs and.. Mr Wolf and Mason Go There and Back Again. 23/03

[von Lucky]

I don't think Christopher Lee is Chinese, just because his name is Lee.

[Vermis]

The films were alright, even though they just kept walking for ages. How about a horse? A cart? Taking the eagles directly to Mount Doom?

They did have a horse. Or a pony. His name was Bill. 

Thing is, in the book, by the time of the Council of Elrond in Rivendell, it wasn't safe to take the westward road to the sea, even with whatever elves and rangers they could muster; let alone go charging south to Mordor with a great fanfare. They did go south, obviously, because it was what Sauron would least expect; but that was after two months of scouting the lands thereabouts (as far south and east as Lothlorien and Radagast's crib in south Mirkwood), and they had to go with all secrecy, rather than strength or even haste. Not to mention over some rough, hilly, thorny and swampy country west of the Misty Mountains, with few good paths.

Horses? Not so much. Eagles? A few fellbeasts, a magical storm or two, plenty of orcs waiting below to catch 'em when they fall... 

The Bilbo film was just a lot of singing and people riding sledges. It was utter shite. Sorry

I haven't seen it, but seeing as they gave it to Peter Jackson rather than beg Guillermo del Toro to stick with it, I'm inclined to believe any claims of it's shortcomings.

And I'm not even touching on the fact that all evil men were of oriental descent...

Where do I start? There's the fact that Middle-Earth began as an attempt to make a mythology for England, comparable to other northwestern european legends; which is no excuse for racial labelling (not that I think he really did) but it might somewhat spoil the effect to go skipping round the PC tree in the middle of an 'ancient' war epic. Not to mention a people situated in the northwest of a continent could find it difficult to be invaded from anywhere but the south and east.

There's more context than that. The War of the Ring, barring Sauron and hordes of orcs, does seem to have a kind of eurocentric horror of invasion by foreign, alien cultures, as with huns, mongols and islamic forces etc. at various times. (maybe even up to a Nazi invasion of Britain, as was a fear at the time of writing) Like those, the War of the Rings wasn't the only instance in Middle-Earth, either. Before that there were three or four wars and invasions in the third age, from the east and south. Not all based on the idea of 'johnny easterner = teh eebils', too: besides population pressure and migration, a lot of the antipathy towards Gondor stemmed from the second age - when Númenor became decadent and corrupt, and began imperialist expansion into Middle-Earth, taking over the west and subduing people of the east and south. (Yes! Eebil westerners!) They still hadn't forgotten, even (or especially) when Númenorian culture dwindled to a foothold in Gondor and Arnor.

Which also would make it a touch easier for Sauron and his agents to go whispering promises of power, vengeance and victory in those locations, as he had before and as he did in Númenor; which in turn would let the more corruptible and evil to rise to the top, unless I miss my guess. Which leads to this quote from The Two Towers:

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he didn't like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace...

YMMV. I don't know if I'd convince you with that or with yet more examinations of Middle-Earth history (going back to the first age!), and I acknowledge that it can be uncomfortable in places. But as with the depiction of easterlings and southrons, I don't think Tolkien's writing - the views of his characters, or the effect he was aiming for - is quite so black and white as some modern commenters make it out to be.

Sorry for that digression, Mason! Maybe a good thing I didn't go meandering off into the first age, too. I wish I had some model suggestions for you, besides the great examples people've already mentioned.

[Centaur_Seducer]

I lift my hat for thee, Vermer
I believe that the whole eastern invasion thing is easier to grasp if you put it in a context of the age it was written.
It was pleasent to experience a good, and informative, reply to the subject.

[Mason]

I would second the Vendel/Sgt Major not LOTR lines - great models.

I am going to consider them for future factions.
Thanks!
 

For Elves, have you considered Thunderbolt Mountain?

They have potential.
Not sure about that edging on the clothing but that is easily rectified with green stuff.
Yep, they are growing on me....
 

Well, you know... 

Good.
Now sit up properly and pay attention.
 

It just hit me. How about the High Elves Copplestone did for Grenadier? They're a bit huffity-puffity, but seem alright in your take of the books*

I dont think that the Grenadier stuff is for me, mate, to be honest.
(And I do agree with you about the Hobbit  ).

***Plenty to consider***

You have given me plenty to think about in there, mate.
 



Incidentally, I have acquired some old Citadel Normans (now available from Foundry) to add to the forces of Gonder, to break up the rather too regimented look. They should make nice unit leaders and Hearthguard equivalents.

Another point I would like opinions on is the use of Cavalry in the Gondor force.
As far as I recall, Gondor itself had no cavalry, other than the messengers.
The only mounted arm would have been the Knights of Dol Amroth.
(Other than the various Lords being mounted, that is).

So, bearing this in mind, I am thinking of converting some Normans and adding some bigger wings to their helmets.
I was thinking of making a press mould using this figure as the master/donor for the wings:



What do you think?

Would they look right?

[Jevenkah]

I think those wings are a bit large, sort of Hermes-esque. Not to make things difficult for you, but a size between those and the first green stuff mod you made might be a more pleasing proportion.

Can't wait for your updates on this one!

Jevenkah

[Vermis]

Silversixx: I admit I'm a bit of a Tolkien fanboy, with more books on the subject than is probably healthy. There's quite an amount of history in there, with LotR as only a little bit near the end.

Mason: I agree that those wings look a little large, but I don't know of they're excessively so. Maybe if they were back and down a little more. It also depends on the size of the donor model compared to your future gondorians. It also reminds me of these...

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Crown_of_Gondor.svg
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Crown_of_Gondor
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Imrahil.jpg

If you agree with the look of that last one, the donor model could be Imrahil right now!

[DeafNala]

He is a rather COOL mini. The Winged Helmet gives him a Wagnerian look. What are you planning on doing with the pliers? Could this be the Little Knights fate if too many Folks give him a thumbs down?

[Centaur_Seducer]

No worries, Vermis One of my best friends actually applied for a doctorate that focused on Tolkien. He didn't get it unfortunately, but still, you aren't alone in your devotion on the subject

Mason, I thought so as well, but thought it would be wise to mention thrm just in case

[LawnRanger]

Hi Lads help ?

just bought a few packs of copplestone  15mm dwarfs without the gw beer bellies  (why do they cast such gnome figures !!!  )  .which is spot on in my eye for lotr.!

Now the problem is should I have 70/30 heavy wpns (axes )/spearmen Or the other way round ..

at the start of my project I thought 3 :1 spear v axe but now not sure if it should be the other way round..

does the books give any ref.. to how the dwarf where armed in general ?

More I think about it the more I say to my self heavy weapons BIG AXES as rule ,as they are tunnel dwellers after all and to use spears to good effect you need them in mass and space to use it properly and in tunnels you aint going to find that too of fen ?

so any input would be great
happy gaming LR   

[Doomhippie]

In the book The Hobbit they mainly carried war mattocks, pickaxes so two-handed weapons. Short sword or handaxe as a sidearm should be fitting. As for spears I'd say see if it looks good. They are probably not the archtypical dwarvish weapon. "Realistically" (if there is such a word to be used in the context of Fantasy) dwarves arenot mentioned to carry spears in any of Tolkien's works - though in Smaug's lair there were indeed spears - they might be from the men of Dale though.

Mason, I think the model is rather fitting for Dol Amrothian knights. At least that is fairly close to how I pictured them when I first read the novel.

[Mason]

I think those wings are a bit large, sort of Hermes-esque. Not to make things difficult for you, but a size between those and the first green stuff mod you made might be a more pleasing proportion.

Can't wait for your updates on this one!

Jevenkah

Thanks, Jevenkah.
I can try to make some copies and then cut them down to various lengths to see what suits.
My first dabble was more to see if I would be happy with the concept at all really, (they would need to look better than that though!)...

Mason: I agree that those wings look a little large, but I don't know of they're excessively so. Maybe if they were back and down a little more. It also depends on the size of the donor model compared to your future gondorians. It also reminds me of these...

I agree. The positioning would be key.
A bit of experimentation would be in order, methinks.

He is a rather COOL mini. The Winged Helmet gives him a Wagnerian look. What are you planning on doing with the pliers? Could this be the Little Knights fate if too many Folks give him a thumbs down?

 
He should be a well-behaved Knight, at least!

Mason, I thought so as well, but thought it would be wise to mention thrm just in case

Not knocking the idea, as I had not even thought of them.
Every suggestion will be considered.
 

More I think about it the more I say to my self heavy weapons BIG AXES as rule ,as they are tunnel dwellers after all and to use spears to good effect you need them in mass and space to use it properly and in tunnels you aint going to find that too of fen ? 

I dont know, mate.
I think spears would certainly have a use in a tunnel as you dont need to swing one about.
Spears have been a pretty solid mainstay of every culture you can think of, so I cannot see Dwarves not using them at some point.

Mason, I think the model is rather fitting for Dol Amrothian knights. At least that is fairly close to how I pictured them when I first read the novel.

I am not sure what the model is, but it has the right 'feel' to me and indeed is very similar to how I pictured them, being a closer tie to Numenor than anywhere else in later Ages.



I shall have a go at messing around with the press mould and try trimming them to various sizes.
That sounds like the best option.
Now to find some good models to pin them to....

[grant]

For Elves, have you considered Thunderbolt Mountain?

Them's fine elves.

[grant]

What are you going to use for Orcses? Filthy, nasty, stinking Orcses?

[von Lucky]

Something else from Thunderbot Mountain?

[Mason]

Them's fine elves.

They are amongst the closest options for me.
I am not entirely sure about that bow or the edging on the clothing, but that is an extremely minor consideration that is easily fixed with a little green stuff.

What are you going to use for Orcses? Filthy, nasty, stinking Orcses?

My Mordor force will mostly consist of Asgard Orcs, which have always most closely resembled Tolkien's description of 'Orcses' in my eyes:

http://www.thevikingforge.net/25mm-fantasy-orcs.html

They are just perfect to me!

Something else from Thunderbot Mountain?

 
Thanks, mate.