Has Kickstarter finally hit rock bottom?

[Conquistador]

Sangennaru,

Well said and pretty much sums up my view.  Like my kids, my empathy for their screw-ups makes me feel for them but natural consequences should be allowed to happen as a result of bad judgment.  Happened to me more than once.  Even I eventually learned.   

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

I do TOTALLY agree with you that they need to assume more responsibility, even if its just ratings, to weed out or evaluate KS projects.  I think that if people are not held, or at least potentially held liable for their KS project, we'll have more of the Cthulu/Monopoly fiasco, or the latest one with the video game.

If I see

1) an established company with good recored or

2) a proven track record of multiple other successful KSs or

3) possibly a track record of both success and backing other successful KS efforts

Then I am more likely to jump onboard. 

Even then I limit my money to thinks I can actually use include in my limited hobby budget.  I have had a few fail to achieve the goal and that is sad but it reminds me that not all ideas I like are financially viable.

So far, no epic fails...

Gracias,

Glenn

[6milPhil]

This is the volte-face of the KS ideal though isn't it. Originally for small outfits to fund small projects which otherwise wouldn't see the light of day now for established companies to run a pre-order campaign. Bit of a shame.

[Cubs]

Well, c'est la vie innit? It's why programmes like 'Dragon's Den' and the whole concept of the business pitch exist, because people with good ideas sometimes don't have the capital or nous to get them off the ground.

It doesn't stop established businesses having to pitch their own ideas, either to outside backers or to their own boardroom, in order to get the cash and/or spread the risk. A rookie entrepreneur is always going to be flying by the seat of their pants in a high risk/high reward game.

I've always worked (on a business level) on the principle of honesty without overloading the customer with irrelevant information (judgement call on that) and trying to maintain a business relationship instead of a friendship. Now that's not to say that some of my business contacts aren't considered friends by me, it's just that I try to put an invisible prophylactic between informal and formal interactions. Perhaps that make me robotic and a tad artificial sounding sometimes, but I do find it helps to separate things and seems to be appreciated. I also try to under-promise in order to over-achieve, or at least avoid disappointment if things go awry. 

I'm still unsure as to the safeguards for a KS backer. Are there any at all? Some people seem to be saying you can claim your money back for a failed venture, some people seem to be saying you can't. Are there conditions? is it legally enforceable or still a grey area?

Personally the only one I've backed (or felt like backing) was the Redbox Games Njorns one, and that's because I've dealt with Tre Manor before, trust him and love his work. This despite the fact that his previous KS ventures didn't go as planned, because shit happens sometimes.

[Too Bo Coo]

Well, c'est la vie innit? It's why programmes like 'Dragon's Den' and the whole concept of the business pitch exist, because people with good ideas sometimes don't have the capital or nous to get them off the ground.

It doesn't stop established businesses having to pitch their own ideas, either to outside backers or to their own boardroom, in order to get the cash and/or spread the risk. A rookie entrepreneur is always going to be flying by the seat of their pants in a high risk/high reward game.

I've always worked (on a business level) on the principle of honesty without overloading the customer with irrelevant information (judgement call on that) and trying to maintain a business relationship instead of a friendship. Now that's not to say that some of my business contacts aren't considered friends by me, it's just that I try to put an invisible prophylactic between informal and formal interactions. Perhaps that make me robotic and a tad artificial sounding sometimes, but I do find it helps to separate things and seems to be appreciated. I also try to under-promise in order to over-achieve, or at least avoid disappointment if things go awry. 

I'm still unsure as to the safeguards for a KS backer. Are there any at all? Some people seem to be saying you can claim your money back for a failed venture, some people seem to be saying you can't. Are there conditions? is it legally enforceable or still a grey area?

Personally the only one I've backed (or felt like backing) was the Redbox Games Njorns one, and that's because I've dealt with Tre Manor before, trust him and love his work. This despite the fact that his previous KS ventures didn't go as planned, because shit happens sometimes.

Cubs, very well put, all the way around. As to getting ones money back, according to the article about  that recently canceled video game, they cited KS policy that the Creator is liable to deliver the goods promised.  I'm certainly no attorney, but at the least it could constitute a breach, or otherwise open the Creator up to liability for not delivering.  Now, again, I'm no attorney, but who would have standing to sue?  KS with whom the first contract is made with, or the backers who actually were left unwhole?  Would KS have to taken action in the name of the backers?  Or would the backers have standing regardless of whom the 'contract' was made with? 
There are of course, other avenues.  At the end of October I was in the KS that did custom heads of yourself (yeah, dont know what I was thinking). They were due to be delivered by the end of December.  By the end of April, I sort of understood that A) they were having major problems and B) those who did get their 'head', complained bitterly about the result.  So I contacted my credit card company and they said that since the delivery was due within 90 days, I could get a charge-back.  So that ended well.

I took part in the Winter War KS and evidently my minis have been sent multiple times, the parcels just never seem to make it to my house....  I was not in for very much, but it is still irritating.

[FramFramson]

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very crucial difference between winning a lawsuit and actually collecting.

[Too Bo Coo]

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very crucial difference between winning a lawsuit and actually collecting.

True, but who wants to walk around with a lien or worse?  I'd imagine being sued and losing in some sort of malfeasance case would make it rather difficult to pursue a new venture in the future.

[FramFramson]

To your credit, you're thinking like someone with a vested interest in remaining a fully functioning member of society and not like a scofflaw happy to take the money and run.

Liens cost money. Very few people will bother once it comes to that and they've seen they wont get a dime.

In my former line of work I constantly observed saw the small time scammers who spend their lives living on ill-gotten gains. They rarely have a cent to their names to claim. Even when they do have a house or car of their own, it'll be in someone else's name, all perfectly legal and on paper they're little more than squatters aided by sympathetic family or friends.

Now, I expect that failed Kickstarters are the result of incompetence far more often than not (though there certainly have been some real scams on KS), but in that case it's often young folks without assets. The end result is the same: They have nothing to collect.

People win all sorts of judgments all the time in Small Claims Courts. Whether they actually get anything for their trouble or not is a very different matter.

As for a bad reputation sticking to a repeat offender, well, you can always delegate someone else to be your project lead or simply obfuscate. That's been done plenty of times too. Scammers are professionals at finding loopholes or changing their information enough to keep going - that's their real job.

[Too Bo Coo]

To your credit, you're thinking like someone with a vested interest in remaining a fully functioning member of society and not like a scofflaw happy to take the money and run.

Liens cost money. Very few people will bother once it comes to that and they've seen they wont get a dime.

In my former line of work I constantly observed saw the small time scammers who spend their lives living on ill-gotten gains. They rarely have a cent to their names to claim. Even when they do have a house or car of their own, it'll be in someone else's name, all perfectly legal and on paper they're little more than squatters aided by sympathetic family or friends.

Now, I expect that failed Kickstarters are the result of incompetence far more often than not (though there certainly have been some real scams on KS), but in that case it's often young folks without assets. The end result is the same: They have nothing to collect.

People win all sorts of judgments all the time in Small Claims Courts. Whether they actually get anything for their trouble or not is a very different matter.

As for a bad reputation sticking to a repeat offender, well, you can always delegate someone else to be your project lead or simply obfuscate. That's been done plenty of times too. Scammers are professionals at finding loopholes or changing their information enough to keep going - that's their real job.

I have an exbrother in law who lives like this, I just could not imagine such a low and petty life. But you're right, there are people who screw others over and sleep like babies at night.

I would certainly not sue in every case, and I wonder if due to the relatively low average pledge amount ( I mean under a few thousand), a small claims action is best. Even just to feel better.  I keep thinking of that monopoly game mostly...of which I was not part of.

[FramFramson]

Some of them sleep like babies. Those are the scariest ones. Others make up rationalizations to tell themselves like "They deserved it." or "I'm a Robin Hood!" (notwithstanding the fact that they're only giving to themselves). Still others have no mind about it at all - like a hunted dog, they just seem to do whatever it takes to escape their current crisis (and the lives of such are almost always one long perpetual crisis), no matter that it gets them into a worse one ten minutes later.

I'm actually amazed there isn't more blatant scamming on Kickstarter considering how perfect it is for this sort of thing. There's minimal oversight; the internet forms a nice barrier for tracing you; it'll be months before you have to produces anything so your getaway time is huge; losses of a few hundred are very rarely enough to spur legal action and having everyone across the world makes it vastly more difficult for victims to mount concerted group action; and best of all, if you post up a few credible fake updates you might just make the whole thing look like a legitimate project that went sour.

[FramFramson]

I find different crooks have their different specialties.

But in any case, crime isn't all about masterminds with a good idea. Loads of them do dumb things that "seemed like a good idea at the time"! I'm just pointing out that on the surface of things, a phoney Kickstarter might be very attractive to a particular type of con.

I can see this being especially attractive to the kind of university-educated internet twenty-something who doesn't have a great network of stuff going on yet. The kind that think they're hot shit.

It also occurred to me just now that a KS campaign would be a pretty good way to launder money.

[Conquistador]

Ah, man, now I need to think about that professionally...  then have it dismissed by superiors derisively if I actually mentioned it...

My gut says that there are holes big enough to drive  truck through in that idea.  But it isn't my AOI so I will leave others to comment on that...

Back to the OP, no, KS still can descend to "greatness" in my mind but we have explored some serious contenders in usually non-specific forms so far.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Cubs]

I find different crooks have their different specialties.

Back in the late 80's a mate of mine used to photocopy five pound notes then colour them in with coloured pencils. He'd go to different amusement arcades and use them at the kiosk to get change. The lighting in the arcade was so poor, no-one ever noticed they were dodgy and he always got away with it.

[Conquistador]

Milk Bar Owner??

Gracias,

Glenn

[nic-e]

Milk Bar Owner??

Gracias,

Glenn

to filly with your droogs