Perry Plastic Men-At Arms Box Cover Art

[Atheling]

Thanks Darrell. Certainly looks to be so.

No probs 

Darrell.

[Metternich]

That command duo is fantastic.  I like my roses white !  Query how often Yorkist king's banner bearer (only two of course, Edward IV and Richard III) actually would have worn a white rose badge.  Edward generally preferred the Sun in Splendor, and Richard of course used his White Boar. 

[Atheling]

That command duo is fantastic.  I like my roses white !  Query how often Yorkist king's banner bearer (only two of course, Edward IV and Richard III) actually would have worn a white rose badge.  Edward generally preferred the Sun in Splendor, and Richard of course used his White Boar. 

Probably not at all- though it is late (I was up at 4am!) and I'm knackered- can't really think straight  .

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Many nobles had more than one badge. The principal one was often the same as the crest on their coat of arms, usually, but not always some form of animal. Secondary ones were usually objects. Edward as Earl of March (iirc) used a white lion and white roses and only changed to 'sunne in splendour' after he became king (and the lion became gold), in memory of his victory at Mortimer's Cross... presumably the royal livery of red and blue came into use at the same time (as opposed to the blue and white of the Lancastrian royal livery, carried by several royal relations, including Richard of York).

The Percys had several badges and one train of thought is that each badge represented a component of the forces they could raise, a 'regimental badge' if you like, so the household might have worn the lion badge, one group the crescent, another the shacklebolt. Seems a reasonable assumption, providing they were all used at the same time or didn't represent individual family member's own contingents.

I always thought the three brothers, Edward, George and Richard were somewhat unique in having all used the murrey and blue livery (although Edward's changed after being crowned) and also the white rose as a secondary badge. Usually different ones were used with families; the Earl of Arundel had different ones to his son, Lord Maltravers, as did several other families (the Bourchiers are another family group who used different ones).

There may be some convention with liveries which has not been passed down to us regarding their use and application, as well as traditions associated with them. Certainly nobles were generally recognised by the badges worn by their men and if livery colours may have changed, I doubt badges often did.     

I may be wrong, but I believe the white rose was associated with the Mortimers, who Edward based his line of succession on, so their use was 'propaganda' based if that is correct. Certainly the white rose appears to have had more use with the Yorkists than the red did with the Lancastrians, which if memory serves me well, was a Tudor badge and both red and white were combined after Henry married Elizabeth of York... so presumably the white rose was very much the recognised symbol of the Yorkists, which hints at it's common use, even after Edward changed his badge (or one of his badges) to the 'sun'.

[Metternich]

Arlequinn, I quite agree that the White Rose was certainly a recognized Yorkist badge.  Just thought that the Household (which certainly would have included any knight trusted to bear the banner) would more probably have used the King's personal badge (Sunne in Splendor, or White Boar) than the faction badge.

[Atheling]

I may be wrong, but I believe the white rose was associated with the Mortimers, who Edward based his line of succession on, so their use was 'propaganda' based if that is correct. Certainly the white rose appears to have had more use with the Yorkists than the red did with the Lancastrians, which if memory serves me well, was a Tudor badge and both red and white were combined after Henry married Elizabeth of York... so presumably the white rose was very much the recognised symbol of the Yorkists, which hints at it's common use, even after Edward changed his badge (or one of his badges) to the 'sun'.

I may be wrong (too!), but I don't think the Red Rose was used at all by the Lancastrians as a badge. It is a Tudor invention unlike the white Yorkist Rose and was designed to symbolise the emergence of both the houses under Henry VII.

Darrell.

[TWD]

Well if rumours are to be believed, it seems the Twins may have a lot more time to spend on their various ranges.
What with no longer having the inconvenience of the "day job" to reduce their productivity.

[Arlequín]

Well if rumours are to be believed, it seems the Twins may have a lot more time to spend on their various ranges.
What with no longer having the inconvenience of the "day job" to reduce their productivity.

It is no rumour: https://www.facebook.com/perryminiatures/posts/527930710662373

I may be wrong (too!), but I don't think the Red Rose was used at all by the Lancastrians as a badge. It is a Tudor invention unlike the white Yorkist Rose and was designed to symbolise the emergence of both the houses under Henry VII.

I think I read it was used by Edmund Tudor (off the top of my head), so yes, not used by the Lancastrians, nor used in the Wars of the Roses, as he died in 1456.

Having said that, I may be falling for Tudor propaganda myself, as that would be too convenient for history to have a new dynasty with the exact same symbol, but in a different colour to the one it replaced.

So yes, no, maybe so.    

Arlequinn, I quite agree that the White Rose was certainly a recognized Yorkist badge.  Just thought that the Household (which certainly would have included any knight trusted to bear the banner) would more probably have used the King's personal badge (Sunne in Splendor, or White Boar) than the faction badge.

'Faction Badge'? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Badges were personal to a specific person and his followers, but not used over the whole of a faction (i.e. there were no 'Yorkist' or 'Lancastrian' badges, only those of individual lords). So a man wearing Edward's badge was part of his own household, or within a unit raised by one of his own retainers; which within any 'Yorkist Army' might be a very small part of the whole.

The men of other lord's households and their own units would wear their badge, regardless of which faction they fought for... like football teams, the only time English players wear a single unifying colour is in 'international games', otherwise they wear that of their own club and there are a lot of clubs.

While badges in the form of jewelry (broaches, chains, pendants) were often given as gifts to lords who supported the leader of a faction in some way, that was purely a personal thing and not extended across that person's men.

Or at least that appears to be the case from what we can gather.  

[Atheling]

I think I read it was used by Edmund Tudor (off the top of my head), so yes, not used by the Lancastrians, nor used in the Wars of the Roses, as he died in 1456.

Having said that, I may be falling for Tudor propaganda myself, as that would be too convenient for history to have a new dynasty with the exact same symbol, but in a different colour to the one it replaced.

So yes, no, maybe so.  

  We all may have fallen for that   

'Faction Badge'? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Badges were personal to a specific person and his followers, but not used over the whole of a faction (i.e. there were no 'Yorkist' or 'Lancastrian' badges, only those of individual lords). So a man wearing Edward's badge was part of his own household, or within a unit raised by one of his own retainers.

The men of other lord's households and their own units would wear their badge, regardless of which faction they fought for... like football teams, the only time English players wear a single unifying colour is in 'international games', otherwise they wear that of their own club and there are a lot of clubs.

While badges in the form of jewelry (broaches, chains, pendants) were often given as gifts to lords who supported the leader of a faction in some way, that was purely a personal thing and not extended across that person's men.

I absolutely concur with Arlequín on this point. It is also worth remembering that as the Wars of the Roses wore on, Bastard Feudalism ie Earls, Lords etc would have become more inclined to increase levels of Maintainance and Livery as it was a two way thing- the Upper Classes protecting their followers and the Lower Classes (for want of a better phrase) doing service for their 'Lord'. Badges would have been handed out to their retainers of various rank on a level that was perhaps more regularl than times pre- Wars of the Roses.

That is not to say that, say during the HYW, liveries were not common.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

That is not to say that, say during the HYW, liveries were not common.

It crossed my mind (although I have no evidence to support this line of thought) that it's possible that men hired on an individual basis directly by the crown might have been issued the white with red cross jackets we are familiar with. Those forming the rank and file of the companies of individual 'sub-contractors' might have instead worn their own lord's liveries, with the 'red cross' worn as a patch-type badge applied over it.

As the standards themselves universally feature the cross of St. George and then the livery and badges, it might not be so far from the truth that this might have been carried over onto the livery coats themselves, albeit in a slightly different fashion.

Certainly in 1475 it seemed important to note the badges of individual lords, which wouldn't really be worth the time and effort if everyone was wearing England's away strip.

Just throwing that one out there...  

[Atheling]

It crossed my mind (although I have no evidence to support this line of thought) that it's possible that men hired on an individual basis directly by the crown might have been issued the white with red cross jackets we are familiar with. Those forming the rank and file of the companies of individual 'sub-contractors' might have instead worn their own lord's liveries, with the 'red cross' worn as a patch-type badge applied over it.

As the standards themselves universally feature the cross of St. George and then the livery and badges, it might not be so far from the truth that this might have been carried over onto the livery coats themselves, albeit in a slightly different fashion.

Yeah, this makes sense to me especially as it is reckoned, Freezewater Publication, Banners and Livery colours of the Wars of the Roses, that the cross of St George probably wasn't used at home games (on English battlefields) but was for away games (France).

Certainly in 1475 it seemed important to note the badges of individual lords, which wouldn't really be worth the time and effort if everyone was wearing England's away strip.

Just throwing that one out there...  

I would tend to agree again. (Although the game did get cancelled  ).

Darrell.

[Orlock]

With respect to the HYW, English ordanances dictated that soldiers in the service of the king should wear a badge or livery coat over bearing the colours of St. George. Likewise the French responded with a badge or livery coat of St. Michael.

Tho did not deter english soldiers from wearing liveries of their lords. Moving forward to the War of the Roses I generally agree with your comments, Arlequin and Atheling.

Pewter or base metal badges would have been available or handed to those in service of a particular lord. Badges were quite common, many were sold by pilgrimage sites, another little money spinner. Pilgrims could then demonstrate their piety.

As a member of a living history company I wore the livery of a Yorkist lord and wore the badge of Edward IV on my hat. There are also instances where levied troops wore a plant sprig of a particular type which grew in their area for identification purposes.

[huevans]

[commissarmoody]

All that armor! 

[Elbows]

I want those...I want those a lot.