Reaper CAV Kickstarter:am i crazy or what?

[Major_Gilbear]

@ SotF:

Not for that long a run-up, and besides; they can always re-melt and re-use the metal.

[eilif]

Just took a look at the CAV prices and you're right, they have gone up massively, looks like about a 75% jump across the board?  I think it was recent think as I seem to remember looking at the online catalog a few weeks back and not noticing any price changes.   They had better release alot of CAV's in bones b/c the price of the metal ones are too rich for my (and I suspect other's) blood. Some of the CAV's are 30+ dollars! If I wanted to pay those kinds of prices I'd play heavy gear. 

All this to say that I may still be in the KS for some Bones CAV's to supplement my 10mm sci-fi forces (mostly rebased mechwarrior stuff) but not if they cost nearly as much as the old metal prices.  Further, I don't see any point in getting into a mech game (not that I was terribly excited about the rules to begin with) where acquiring more than the basic plastic models is going to be such an expensive proposition.

[Conquistador]

I thought the CAV figures were over-priced from Day 1 myself but I despise all Mecha games (one of the few genres I simply won't bother with even at a convention so my opinion on that is clearly biased.)  But then ditto for BT and other such games.  

That said, maybe they are planning on replacing CAV metal with CAV "Bones" entirely eventually (maybe even have duplicate figures thinking the profit margin on plastic will be better, how the hell would I know?)

The Market will judge how good/bad an idea this was.  As it should.

Gracias,

Glenn

[SotF]

@ SotF:

Not for that long a run-up, and besides; they can always re-melt and re-use the metal.

Sure, but at the same time, dropping prices online also likely trickle to the game stores that do stock it...which means the sales and later requests would add to those going for store level sales with the kickstarter. Having a few people noticing that the online price has gone up now, means that there will be people who are going to ask around at their local store about if they have them and checking the price...that gets the store to start thinking about it, both from the perspective of people looking for it, and, if the price is higher, well, the bones are cheaper and people were looking for them...

Sure, they can reuse the metals at later points, but that also ignores the other half of it. CAV isn't one of the current top games, and that means they need to do things to draw attention to it and burning stock works well to do it.

[Conquistador]

Sure, but at the same time, dropping prices online also likely trickle to the game stores that do stock it...which means the sales and later requests would add to those going for store level sales with the kickstarter. Having a few people noticing that the online price has gone up now, means that there will be people who are going to ask around at their local store about if they have them and checking the price...that gets the store to start thinking about it, both from the perspective of people looking for it, and, if the price is higher, well, the bones are cheaper and people were looking for them...

Sure, they can reuse the metals at later points, but that also ignores the other half of it. CAV isn't one of the current top games, and that means they need to do things to draw attention to it and burning stock works well to do it.

I wonder why they keep carrying it because no one - not even the Big Stompy Robot guys - locally even talks about it (yeah my little part of the world is the heart beat of war gaming... not...) but it must either be profitable or they don't want to abandon a line (which would be more war gamer than business person thinking.)

That is a pretty deep analysis, SotF, and one I still can't decide if it would be something the typical war game producer would think to do.  But then I found Reaper to be a great source for my miniatures in the past (I have asked enough times if there is a 15/18 mm equivalent to Reaper for a project.)

Gracias,

Glenn

[Rhelyk]

It may have been a case of not bothering to update the prices for so long BECAUSE so few people were buying them, intentially keeping prices lower than they should be for what few "CAV Loyalists" exist (I have heard of very few such players). Most times I see a CAV mech it's used in Battletech or some other game. I had always been surprised to see the figures selling for less than Iron Wind Metals charges even though CAV mechs are generally larger and often more complex than the Battletech mechs. It may be they're expecting sales to pick up again once the kickstarter hits and don't want to lose money on them. That said, It still strikes me as too much for what you're getting, $18-$25 for most of the mechs is just too much for what is basically a 40k terminator sized model. It's a good thing I prefer the Bones material to metal or I'd be pretty upset too.

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

here's the full Listing of my Order along with the new prices (Euros) in Red,see for yourself 100% increase  

07111: Warhawk €6.63 x1         13.27
07092: Thunderbird €9.12 x1     18.25
07082: Revenant €6.63 x1         13.27
24590: Tiger €9.95 x1               19.90
24542: Conqueror €8.29 x1       16.60
24533: Knight €7.46 x1             14.93
24520: Specter €8.29 x1           16.59
24519: Simba €12.44 x1            24.80
24516: Dauntless €8.29 x1        16.59
24514: Gnomic €9.12 x             18.25
24513: Tomahawk €9.12 x1       18.25
24508: Weasel €7.46 x1            14.93
24503: Razor €7.46 x1              14.93

Subtotal:   110.26                       220.51
Shipping:   Free USPS
Handling:   1.00
Order Total:   â‚¬111.26

[eilif]

Wow, that is pretty shocking! Doubling of price is not something we associate with Reaper, rather it's what we expect from GW.

I wonder if the "Cavboss" fellow who formerly ran Talon Games, but now is in control of the relaunch of CAV is behind the price raises. It just doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that Reaper does.

Conquistador,
    As to why they still are in production, I think it's because part of the Reaper identity is that nearly every miniature they have ever produced with the exception of...

-Some minis that are difficult to cast properly
-Licensed lines that have expired. (Doom, MTG, etc)
-Lines that have been sold (15mm demon world)

… are still availble for sale. Even if it's not in the current Reaper Catalog (online or "casketworks") they have a NIC (Not in Catalog) online file that has the ID for everything else and you can still order it from them direct. 

If there's a favorite Reaper mini that you thought was OOP, chances are that it's still available!

[beefcake]

Most of the minis aren't very dynamic looking either. Standing pose, weapons straight ahead. They kind of look like chess pieces. I know they are robots but some look of movement or readiness would go a long way.

[Conquistador]

<snip>
Conquistador,
    As to why they still are in production, I think it's because part of the Reaper identity is that nearly every miniature they have ever produced with the exception of...

-Some minis that are difficult to cast properly
-Licensed lines that have expired. (Doom, MTG, etc)
-Lines that have been sold (15mm demon world)

… are still availble for sale. Even if it's not in the current Reaper Catalog (online or "casketworks") they have a NIC (Not in Catalog) online file that has the ID for everything else and you can still order it from them direct. 

If there's a favorite Reaper mini that you thought was OOP, chances are that it's still available!

That is great in principle but might mean you hang onto a line that really is not competitive.

Only time will tell if this is crazy or crazy as a fox.

Gracias,

Glenn
Loves Reaper (especially Bones) but not so much the CAV line...

[SotF]

I wonder why they keep carrying it because no one - not even the Big Stompy Robot guys - locally even talks about it (yeah my little part of the world is the heart beat of war gaming... not...) but it must either be profitable or they don't want to abandon a line (which would be more war gamer than business person thinking.)

That is a pretty deep analysis, SotF, and one I still can't decide if it would be something the typical war game producer would think to do.  But then I found Reaper to be a great source for my miniatures in the past (I have asked enough times if there is a 15/18 mm equivalent to Reaper for a project.)

Gracias,

Glenn

I have a couple of them that I got a few years back as war droids of different types for a Star Wars RPG campaign, which is part of the reason they may still keep it going. There are also a few locals who do play it, and a lot of the sculpts are interesting as well

[Elbows]

Curious...makes me wonder if the guy responsible for bringing CAV up to spec is following the rather absurd prices of the Battletech companies.  The main miniature company for Battletech sells mediocre-sculpted Battlemechs (essentially 28mm scale) in white metal for around $12-18 a piece.  Monumentally over-priced for the quality of what you get.

http://ironwindmetals.com/store/index.php?cPath=16_21

So the CAV models are now in line with the Battletech models (many BT'ers chop-shop stuff with CAV bits).  That's not to say it's a logical price in any way shape or form.  CAV models are all rather uninspiring and blase (and immobile -how doe the mechs in the OP even move?  And at what speed?) --- but they're pretty big chunks of metal.  That can't help the cost.  I think that's one of the best reasons they're going to Bones.  Bones material makes so much sense for big, thick, heavy models.  I can't fathom my stone golem in metal - it'd weigh 4 lbs.

It's also possible this is all intentional.  Jack up prices of metals...introduce Bones --- metals fall out of favour completely, company justification to kill the metal line and go all-Bones.

[Conquistador]

<snip>

… are still availble for sale. Even if it's not in the current Reaper Catalog (online or "casketworks") they have a NIC (Not in Catalog) online file that has the ID for everything else and you can still order it from them direct. 

I have not seen "Casketworks" in a long time and I can't find a "NIC" part of the website.  The only way I found some out of production but available figures was by searching for traits in the Figure Finder section.  Is there a NIC/Casketworks area of the web site any more?

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

It's also possible this is all intentional.  Jack up prices of metals...introduce Bones --- metals fall out of favour completely, company justification to kill the metal line and go all-Bones.

Never assign to conspiracy what can be explained by serendipity, the bureaucratic alchemy of the Law of Unintended Consequences, ignorance and/or stupidity, or random chance.

Human beings are sinful but not as brilliant as we like to pretend.

Gracias,

Glenn

[eilif]

I asked this question on the Reaper forums and it appears that CAV models were being made of the lead-based p65 alloy and now that that is discontinued, they're upping the price on the CAV codes.  It doesn't all make sense as some folks had pointed out that some smaller models had been priced up much more than larger ones, but the upshot is that it's an in-progress project.

Personally I don't think they're nearly worth the new prices, but we'll see if anyone buys them.

I have not seen "Casketworks" in a long time and I can't find a "NIC" part of the website.  The only way I found some out of production but available figures was by searching for traits in the Figure Finder section.  Is there a NIC/Casketworks area of the web site any more?

Gracias,
Glenn

Casketworks (IIRC) just reflects what's currenlty on the website.
You can find the NIC catalog and digital versions of almost all casketworks on the casketworks page:
http://www.reapermini.com/pdf/2012NICedCatalog.pdf

As for why they keep the NIC figs available, I think it's largely that it's not much of an effort for them to do so. Reaper has alot of codes, but they do all their own casting and as long as they have the shelf space for the master, molds and a bit of stock, it probably doesn't take any real effort to keep them available. I assume (though I don't know) that NIC models don't come in a blister unless it's old stock. 

I think it's probably just good practice to get as many orders (which likely have other items in them as well) as possible from their customers and to give an incentive to shop direct that wouldn't be too much of a hit against their retail outlets.

GW did this for a long time, but they did discontinue the practice.  Of course their number of miniatures and bits codes far exceeded Reaper, and they were in the midst of moving to more injection molded plastic kits.