Advice Please - WoTR with Lion Rampant

[guitarheroandy]

So, I finally cracked and decided that I should get in the plastic medieval minis lark and figured that the best place to start would be with Dan Mersey's Lion Rampant rules. Then I needed to decide on which Medieval era to go with - WoTR or something earlier.

Anyway, I have decided that plastic figures being what they are, by far and away the best are the Perry WoTR range. And a couple of chaps I game with regularly have WoTr models... So, I headed to Mr Mersey's blog where he had posted about building plastic armies. It seems from this that I need to buy a box of 'bills and bows' to create myself 2 units of 12 longbowmen and 1 unit of 12 billmen. No problem on that score then...one box of bills n bows it will be...

However, I also need some elites... One unit, actually... Do I go with a box of Mounted men at arms or would the foot chaps in the new Foot Knights box be better historically speaking? I don't know very much about the period (although I am keen to find out more), but there seems to be an awful lot more of chaps hacking at one another on foot with smaller groups of mounted chaps waiting to cause mayhem and misery at the appropriate time rather than the grand knightly charges of earlier periods (is that right?)
So, given the scale of conflict replicated in Lion Rampant, I figure that a box of foot knights might be a more historically based approach to give me a small bunch of elites (?)

Would those of a more medievally minded persuasion please care to chip in and assist so I can go and place the order for rules and troops?

Thanks muchly in advance...

[Jeff965]

Andy have you seen the excellent work on Boardgames Geek's site with regards to using these rules for the WOTR? You can either have a look yourself or I could send you a copy.

Jeff

[guitarheroandy]

I haven't visited there for ages! Will pop on over for a look!  Thanks for that! 

[Ray Earle]

Andy, you're strangely at exactly the same point I am!  

I'm initially working towards a 24 point army and have pretty much gone the same way as yourself. 2 units of bow and 1 of bill with an elite unit of men at arms on foot. Actually picked up the knights at Derby today. Couldn't find the bow and bill box anywhere..

I'm intending to use experienced bow or sergeants as household troops, with standard bow and sergeant as regulars and yeomen as levy.

I think the mounted knightly charge was a little rare especially towards the end of the wars (unless you were Plantagenet of course..), with the role of light cavalry, or prickers, being more of a mainstay.

Darrell will be along in a minute though. And he knows a lot more than me.  

[Captain Blood]

You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.

[guitarheroandy]

You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.

That's what I thought. Thank you! I shall place an order for bills n bows and foot knights from the Perrys forthwith!

[Happy Wanderer]

Hi Andy,

I wrote the Boardgame geek WOTR lists which should get you going. Arlequin has also posted excellent details on his blog using Lion Rampant for the WOTR so between us this info should give you a good head start.

http://arl-med.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-wars-of-roses.html

Cheers

Happy Wanderer

PS ...love your blog....great work 

[guitarheroandy]

Hi Andy,

I wrote the Boardgame geek WOTR lists which should get you going. Arlequin has also posted excellent details on his blog using Lion Rampant for the WOTR so between us this info should give you a good head start.

http://arl-med.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-wars-of-roses.html

Cheers

Happy Wanderer

PS ...love your blog....great work 

Thanks very much!  I'll head on over to Arlequin's blog later. I have found the Boardgame Geek resources, so I'm all set. Rules should arrive this weekend, models on Monday!

I'll be in touch if I need any further help if that's ok?

[Bindonblood]

While in a major battle the men at arms would fight on foot, at the large skirmish level that Lion Rampant is set at, would that still be the case?

[Happy Wanderer]

"I'll be in touch if I need any further help if that's ok?"

Not a problem. The rules have proved quite flexible and the possibilities of use of the Perry plastics are many....as you can tell by Captain Blood's threads on LAF.

I shall watch your army painting progress on your blog with interest.

Cheers

Happy W

[Arlequín]

While in a major battle the men at arms would fight on foot, at the large skirmish level that Lion Rampant is set at, would that still be the case?

Personally I'd say no, I would imagine that as we are not talking big battles, they would be mounted or dismounted as the situation demanded... but then again the same would be true of the higher status archers and others below the 'gentry'.

However for a taste for the era, a box of 'infantry' and some 'foot knights' is good enough start. Options can always be expanded if when Andy gets the bug.       

You'd be better off with the new foot knights. Most WOTR battles saw the nobility, gentry and other fully-armoured professionals fighting in the front line, on foot, alongside their less well equipped troops - to stiffen their resolve and provide leadership from the front, one assumes. Full-blooded charges by mounted knights were rare in set piece battles (Bosworth being a notable exception) - mounted troops were basically used for pursuits, harrying, scouting and so on. But rarely front-on in battle.

Says the man with more knights than the House of Lords. 

Actually, I'm sort of undecided myself on this. Blore Heath 'appears' to be much like a sort of English Crecy and of course we have no eyewitness accounts of battles, only second or third hand sources, often somewhat removed in time too. The Tudors fielded a lot of demi-lancers/costrils/whatever as early as 1495, and I can't imagine they woke up one morning after 1485 and thought "Hey, you know what would be cool?" I suspect that there was a steady increase in the use of mounted men at arms, but due to cost the equipment of most got lighter and less complete over time.

I might not put money on that theory though.     

[Dalauppror]

Very nice project Andy, Looking forward to see the progress !

best regards Michael

[guitarheroandy]

 So the main question now is whether to paint the forces using the livery of an actual WOTR Lord or whether to just make something up. The advantages of the former are being able to use banners available from LBM which even have livery badges...(edit) have just realised the actual boxed set contains flags...hmmm...

The downside of this is that it ties me to a particular side and colour scheme. The upside is that it's easy to do.

If I design my own, I have to paint my own banner and coats of arms (although I suppose I could get away with just using fully plate armoured command figures to avoid the horror of a coat of arms on a 28mm figure)...

Decisions, decisions...

[Ray Earle]

I intend to stick with a general colour scheme to tie the troops together but to (initially) miss out livery badges.

I'm going with red and black which will historically give me a force for Percy or Stafford (probably a couple of others..). I'm going to give flags and banners a miss for this size of engagement. I'm aiming for 24pts.

The household troops and men-at-arms will get the red/black combo. Whereas less important troops will get a general madder red, ochre or orange uniform so that they will be easily distinguished on the battlefield.

[guitarheroandy]

I can't ever field an army without at least one banner! 
Also, I intend to try the Sharp Practice WOTR rule adaptations as well as Lion Rampant so I'll need to create a handful of 'big man' bases, one of which, as force leader will have his banner bearer on the base with him...

I guess I need to research what colour combos were used in the period then do something like you are planning so that the force can be a bit more multi purpose. Avoiding livery badges is therefore a good idea both from practical usability and from the point of view of retaining sanity while painting, as my eyes are nothing like as good as they were even 2 years ago...