[Kickstarter] Shieldwolf:War is coming (Battle Orc Wyvern review page #11!)

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Appreciate it, I apologize if I gave that impression to anyone -but still fail to see how 
Yes, we are Greeks and Shieldwolf Miniatures thus also Greek (very near Athens) 

We'll make sure to upload some sculpts and relative artwork plus other news/fluff/background as the launch date approaches. 

Thank you.

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

We have added a small poll to evaluate people's thoughts on the armies revealed so far in our KS project.
We value your opinion and need your help to evaluate their popularity and classify the order of our Stretch goals.

Thank you! 

[The Red Graf]

I am really looking forward to seeing the greens for these. I hope they are just a little more grim dark and a little less cartoonish than the drawings.

As for the Amazons. First, I think an army of Northern barbarian women covered from head to toe in seal skin parkas with fur hoods while historically accurate would be a total disaster for your kickstarter. Sex sells, sex populates the planet, sex has been a part of military display since the dawn of war. Robert Howard sanctified the fur bikini. All that being said, I would love to see an army of women in full plate, but for the love of god put breasts on the breast plates. Yes, I know they serve no function, but neither did the fins on Cadillacs and those sold pretty well.

[FramFramson]

The boobies only need to be on full display for those stolid souls in sore need of a working visual imagination.

... which is simply a rather glib way of saying that it would have been nice (and genuinely unusual) to see an Amazon army in genuinely proper, functioning kit instead of the ten-thousand-and-first copy of Red Sonja from someone who claims they're being original.

[Nord]

I'm waiting for the 5th army reveal (and hoping it's demons) before voting.

Good luck to you in your endeavour, new minis and greater choice are always a good thing.

Looking forward to more concept art, but more importantly, examples of greens/digital sculpts. If the sculpts are up to snuff, I may well be tempted. It's a very, very ambitious project, will be interesting to see the details next year.

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

I'm waiting for the 5th army reveal (and hoping it's demons) before voting.

Good luck to you in your endeavour, new minis and greater choice are always a good thing.

Looking forward to more concept art, but more importantly, examples of greens/digital sculpts. If the sculpts are up to snuff, I may well be tempted. It's a very, very ambitious project, will be interesting to see the details next year.

Thank you!  

The 5th army will not be included in the Poll above I'm afraid so you can go right ahead and vote if you like, we are looking forward to sorting out first the impact/impression these 4 have made before adding more to the basket.  

We are very much looking forward to the impression our new sculpts will have on the Community, we like them very much but -we are certain- there will always be someone left dissatisfiedd...  

The boobies only need to be on full display for those stolid souls in sore need of a working visual imagination.

... which is simply a rather glib way of saying that it would have been nice (and genuinely unusual) to see an Amazon army in genuinely proper, functioning kit instead of the ten-thousand-and-first copy of Red Sonja from someone who claims they're being original.

  Our research shows the "light-armored" version stands better chances of making a good impact. Way better to be precise, although as pointed out before we will be asking backers to vote if they ask for it.
As for being original, you've probably misunderstood, maybe it's because of our im-perfect English, anyway the originality Shieldwolf shows for this does not (obviously) reside in the clothing of the Northern Alliance women (we never claimed that) but instead on their background story and army. And by "army" we mean there is no-one else producing something like this.  (That's to our knowledge at least, please correct if we are wrong) We are the first -or at least we are the first who try to create an army as such  !

Edit:

I am really looking forward to seeing the greens for these. I hope they are just a little more grim dark and a little less cartoonish than the drawings.

As for the Amazons. First, I think an army of Northern barbarian women covered from head to toe in seal skin parkas with fur hoods while historically accurate would be a total disaster for your kickstarter. Sex sells, sex populates the planet, sex has been a part of military display since the dawn of war. Robert Howard sanctified the fur bikini. All that being said, I would love to see an army of women in full plate, but for the love of god put breasts on the breast plates. Yes, I know they serve no function, but neither did the fins on Cadillacs and those sold pretty well.

Sorry, missed that! 

I'll probably disappoint you, there will be a tiny bit of cartoonism but not exaggerated/silly. Hopefully you'll comment further once we start pumping the models out for people to see (which is in the very next few days that is).
As for the clothing, I think you've nailed it just fine. 

[FramFramson]

Well, the "original" comment wasn't directed exclusively to you folks, but off the top of my head there have been whole armies of such "northern barbarian women by several companies over the years, such as Brigade, Rackham, and so forth, and other manufacturers such as Reaper, Ral Partha, Foundry and others who don't have a dedicated army set per se, but still produce enough different individual miniatures to create one.

It's a classic fantasy trope, and though it's somewhat cheesy and stale, I don't expect it to vanish, even if I personally would be a lot more interested in something both more novel and more sensible.

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Oh yes, NOW I see how something can be misinterpreted 

We have seen these -some really lovely models among them too-, our interpretation/definition of an army however is with "rank n' file" troops, warmachines, cavalry, huge monsters etc. All of which will be included in these 5 armies the Kickstarter project will try to fund. 

[The Red Graf]

I'm good with a tiny bit of cartoon-ism.  The rapid replies to our messages are very much appreciated.

[Hat Guy]

Admitting, first-up, that I am consciously playing Devil's Advocate here and being more than a little cynical...

If one is intending to create an "Original" line of fantasy miniatures, why go with Orcs at all?

I can understand it from a marketing perspective, anything that can be used for WHFB will sell and fund the rest of the range, but if it were me, I'd have a difficult time making claims about originality with a straight face.

Ok, I have a literature degree, I understand Postmodernism, literary exhaustion and the core narratives; NOTHING is truly original, especially with Fantasy, with Tolkien, D&D and Warhammer to follow on from. But why not try the path less trod? You've admitted yourself that the scantly-clad barbarian women will be "of more interest" to the target market, but I notice that the admission came only after the cliched nature of the miniatures was pointed out several times.

Your argument that "no one else" is doing specifically what you are, may hold water (I'm not possessing of an encyclopaedic knowledge of fantasy figures), but the fact is that little of what has been presented so far is very much different, stylistically, from other ranges already out there. Black Hat, Eureka and Privateer Press (to a certain extent) do unique and interesting fantasy ranges and seem to do pretty well out of it.

I guess what I'm getting at is that your comments smack of marketing spin and that after nearly two decades in the hobby, fantasy orcs and barbarian women bore me.

Hope the KS goes well, but I shan't be pledging myself.

[Roddy]

... which is simply a rather glib way of saying that it would have been nice (and genuinely unusual) to see an Amazon army in genuinely proper, functioning kit instead of the ten-thousand-and-first copy of Red Sonja from someone who claims they're being original.

The ongoing Red Sonja series by Gail Simone actually has her in some really cool leather vests (she still sports the armored bikini on the covers though)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img607/3244/pwv1.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/57754e603383fadc81c7be79b13753c2/tumblr_nds6slMzRa1qhqhmto7_1280.jpg

[Nord]

I'm disappointed at the negativity in this thread.

Originality is very thin on the ground. Every time a new historical range is released, do we all shout "boring, it's been done before", because inevitably it has. No we do not. I see dozens of companies releasing new metals in the historical sections, most of which are not only same old, same old in their design, but also poorly sculpted and looking like the same old crap that has been put out for years. And all the replies are heart warming "wow" and "lovely" and such like.

A new guy comes along, with some new ideas (and some old too, but see above) and gets a lecture on originality and marketing. I always thought it best to refrain from commenting if you are not enthusiastic about a topic, or do I now have to go and revisit all those historical threads and tell the author that his range has been done before several times and is poorly sculpted, not to mention quite expensive?

I wish the new venture good luck, as I said before extra choice is never a bad thing, you can always (silently) decide it's not for you and move on. Or you can decide it's your thing, spread the word, and enjoy your new toys in the fullness of time. There's nothing wrong with constructive commentary, but arguments over originality, marketing and bikinis, is this really what we want in this forum?

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

Admitting, first-up, that I am consciously playing Devil's Advocate here and being more than a little cynical...

All comments/suggestions etc are more than welcome, that's what we are looking for by interacting directly in the forums!  

If one is intending to create an "Original" line of fantasy miniatures, why go with Orcs at all?

We never said we are re-creating the world  , we see originality in new armies but also in a new take if you prefer on what they should look like. We cannot please everyone and people will always have something to point out, we do Orcs and people say we copy GW, we do their weapons bigger and people (a page back!) say we copy Blizzard, we do Djinns and people say we copy Disney! I hope you see what I mean, hard to prove I'm not an elephant I guess (Greek saying, meaning it's impossible to prove the obvious...)
Again, I repeat that I find it highly unfair having been "blamed" for not copying appropriately another producer (you can imagine whom I'm referring to), it's horrible when we don't even get credit for our innovation at least, even if people may have gotten used to one type and not liking the other? Then again, you haven't received all the emails we have, so I can understand we don't stand in the same part of the cliff on this. (meaning we see things from different angles)

I can understand it from a marketing perspective, anything that can be used for WHFB will sell and fund the rest of the range, but if it were me, I'd have a difficult time making claims about originality with a straight face.

Well, we'll simply have to agree to disagree, I assure you I keep a very straight face.  
Same as above, if we wanted to copy warhammer we would have gone doing something a Spanish company does very well for example, nor would we be sculpting any arabian figs, (which IIRC do not even exist as an army in WHF), Death Deceivers etc which have nothing to do with their game, this is our game we are creating.
Funny enough we have not posted any rules yet, if the minis have caused this debate I'd hate to know what would happen with all the rules that will definitely be judged "not innovative"!   (I literally smiled while thinking/writing this part of the rules bit!)  

 I'm attaching a pic from a French forum of how Orc Shieldwolf faces are "not fitting" with the rest of the range...


I can also show you pics we receive from time to time of how people purchasing our products have e.g. substituted our Orc crew on the Great Wolf chariots and placed goblins atop (although we have still not released any) or substituted our Heavy Skeleton Infantry heads and banner with another producer's, or even how that Owl keeps on appearing on other skeleton models arms!   Anyway, everyone is more than free to draw their conclusions...

Ok, I have a literature degree, I understand Postmodernism, literary exhaustion and the core narratives; NOTHING is truly original, especially with Fantasy, with Tolkien, D&D and Warhammer to follow on from. But why not try the path less trod? You've admitted yourself that the scantly-clad barbarian women will be "of more interest" to the target market, but I notice that the admission came only after the cliched nature of the miniatures was pointed out several times.

Because I like Orcs and have decided to have them in this game, although following a more "fearsome" look. (I've put it in "" 'cause I don't want the word to cause further debate)  
Actually this was not pointed out in this forum alone, Dakka, Da-warpath and a few others we have directly engaged have also talked about the clothing, even webpages like Beasts of War which we simply monitor have had the same commentary.   This is the only forum who has been very argumentative on the percentage of our "originality" however, yes, that's true.  

We can simply agree to disagree   but I ask of you this for argument's sake:
 Let's say the Devil's Advocate is correct, and the originality/innovation doesn't really exist to the degree as SWM claims. If tomorrow (and by tomorrow I mean e.g. 4 years) we start producing an entire army of Eaglemen or Fishmen or whatever else does not currently exist (let alone in HIPS), but all that was due to the wisest choice the Company initially made in while being innovative having contained this to a certain level in order to grow, how would you feel about it?
I'm not saying they are in our pans, but that the other option is maybe no-one else is ever going to produce these.  

Although we are aware that along with Games-Workshop we are currently the only other company worldwide that keep on tooling 28mm heroic scale in HIPS and we have mailed thousands of miniatures (literally) around the whole world, people are talking about us like we have been here for years or having received the millions via KS Mantic Games has been funded with! We are a young and ambitious company, we don't hide that and to some even if we did it's still obvious. We are seeking top-quality product, innovation, better pricing, and for that we have gone into the expenses and effort and although it was definitely not in our plans, we are now openly asking for your support.   I think it's as simple as that
For those who do not know us, a coulpe of words. On February 2013 we officially "opened" our store. On February 2014 -to the surprise of many as seen in various forums- we stroke HIPS. On February 2015 we hope we can put the bases to create the foundations for a great army-making miniatures company.  That's why the entire project was named "Pillars of Destiny"

Your argument that "no one else" is doing specifically what you are, may hold water (I'm not possessing of an encyclopaedic knowledge of fantasy figures), but the fact is that little of what has been presented so far is very much different, stylistically, from other ranges already out there. Black Hat, Eureka and Privateer Press (to a certain extent) do unique and interesting fantasy ranges and seem to do pretty well out of it.

Evolution, not revolution.   I'll completely agree on the companies you've mentioned but note that all of the above are destined for skirmish games or to complete other army games, these miniatures are not fit to stand alone as army-games. You don't need 100+ minis to play them.

I guess what I'm getting at is that your comments smack of marketing spin and that after nearly two decades in the hobby, fantasy orcs and barbarian women bore me.

Hope the KS goes well, but I shan't be pledging myself.

I've liked fantasy ever since I remember, Orcs and barbarians still excite me.  
I appreciate the wish and I'm sure you mean it (no sarcasm), hopefully all will go as planned.  

The ongoing Red Sonja series by Gail Simone actually has her in some really cool leather vests (she still sports the armored bikini on the covers though)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img607/3244/pwv1.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/57754e603383fadc81c7be79b13753c2/tumblr_nds6slMzRa1qhqhmto7_1280.jpg

Yes, but I think you'll agree with me that saying that would protect you from the icy cold is still silly.  

I've quoted something we wrote over at da-warpath forum
In the heat of battle you do not cover yourself in furs, the adrenaline is such that you will simply take the enemy on with wearing as little burden as possible, the cold is not your concern at the point, instead your foe's axe or sword are!
Wear armor, well, it's not going to do much good to you when the much heavier and stronger male opponent strikes you. We are not the first to have "invented" this clothing, we are not sexist nor miso-gynists, that's why we will have both versions ready for their plastic regiment. We have designed some plated armor parts on the female Lords with a bit of chaimail too, but we find the "regular" Shieldmaidens would much prefer maintaining their agility over some temporary protection. That's why they have their shields anyway, this is fantasy after all! :-)

Thanks for reading, any comments -even negative- are more than welcome!
Angelos.

[Shieldwolf Miniatures]

I'm disappointed at the negativity in this thread.

Originality is very thin on the ground. Every time a new historical range is released, do we all shout "boring, it's been done before", because inevitably it has. No we do not. I see dozens of companies releasing new metals in the historical sections, most of which are not only same old, same old in their design, but also poorly sculpted and looking like the same old crap that has been put out for years. And all the replies are heart warming "wow" and "lovely" and such like.

A new guy comes along, with some new ideas (and some old too, but see above) and gets a lecture on originality and marketing. I always thought it best to refrain from commenting if you are not enthusiastic about a topic, or do I now have to go and revisit all those historical threads and tell the author that his range has been done before several times and is poorly sculpted, not to mention quite expensive?

I wish the new venture good luck, as I said before extra choice is never a bad thing, you can always (silently) decide it's not for you and move on. Or you can decide it's your thing, spread the word, and enjoy your new toys in the fullness of time. There's nothing wrong with constructive commentary, but arguments over originality, marketing and bikinis, is this really what we want in this forum?

Noticed this after having posted my reply.
Thank you. 

[Tactalvanic]

Simply put, I watch with interest and come the day, may participate in said KS.

But there's other stuff and reality biting on my wallet that might prevent that - such is life.

Although much of my modern collection leans towards true 28mm and not heroic, I never the less have much of both.

I welcome the arrival and preferably success of any miniature manufacturer, and wish them the best, and hopefully will find stuff in their product line I like, original or not.

In the end more options, more stuff, is always welcome.

I will take what I like and leave what I don't - preferably.

Some genericness in the beginning has to be expected, you are running a business, you need revenue, and cannot rely on completely new concepts, races, KS's etc to sell that. So some semi-generic, Orc, humans, elves etc, all welcome in the lead mountains of madness and paint. whether they look a bit different or not.

Some hype also has to be expected mind you.... and treated accordingly

And if after some success you decide to do an entire race of catmen/fishmen/Ferrets etc, good on you I might even buy one of those to.

As for whats already proposed, if it fits in with what I already have/do then that will of course also influence whether to look at obtaining some - originality might not be that big a deal at that point.

So good luck, all the best, happy time of the year, and bring on some greens for us to see so we can judge better what we want to do with what you are developing.