Women in wargames

[harleyface]

Nice example that there is never only black or white....
Know the story of the strangest battle

[The Red Graf]

My first wife was a gamer, mostly role playing and board games rather than figures. At one point she started but never completed a Mordheim Warband. She got as far as picking out the miniatures and while she planned to use the mercenary rules she chose all female figures from Reaper. I would rate them about half way between Sisters of Sigmar and Witch Elves on the cheesecake scale. I like to collect female figures, sexualized and not and she never expressed any outrage or disdain for my collection.

My second wife has no interest in wargamming at all though she plays a mean game of Settlers of Cattan. The other day I caused a slight kerfuffle on this very forum by starting a thread about the new Raging Heroes kickstarter. A number of people who replied seemed to find the figures offensive and that irked me enough that I mentioned it to my wife. I tried to explain what I saw as the mindset of the anti cheesecake crowd and why I enjoyed collecting miniature naked or hyper sexualized women. She thought about this and decided that if I was the kind of guy that got bent out of shape because a one inch tall statue was flashing it's enormous tits, I probably would not have been the kind of guy she was interested in.

Now, I am sure that these opinions are not universal. I am sure there are legions of flannel wearing sensible shoe shod fans of the Television show Girls who would be happy to tell me that my hobby is an insult to them, but I'm not attracted to the sensible shoe crowd anymore than they would be to me.

Different strokes for different folks I say. As long as you don't try to take my naked Kev White Harem girls away from me I won't try to take your Indigo Girls collection away from you.

[The Red Graf]

Hope its not too far off topic
but...
have you ever thought about us germans...
we are the evil guys...
thats historical correct
have you ever thought about discriminating a generation not beeing enymies
no...?
because thats ok...i never was discriminated in real life and thats the important thing.
have you ever played a ww2game with good nazis...
fighting for mislead reasons for their country..?
I would like nice nazis  

I always wanted to run a GURPS campaign where a unit of WWII American Soldiers end up in an Orc infested fantasy World and have to make common cause with a Waffen SS unit to survive.

[Centaur_Seducer]

Now, I am sure that these opinions are not universal. I am sure there are legions of flannel wearing sensible shoe shod fans of the Television show Girls who would be happy to tell me that my hobby is an insult to them, but I'm not attracted to the sensible shoe crowd anymore than they would be to me.

Love the passive agressivness!

The OP is 100% right.

[Agent Brown]

Now, I am sure that these opinions are not universal. I am sure there are legions of flannel wearing sensible shoe shod fans of the Television show Girls who would be happy to tell me that my hobby is an insult to them, but I'm not attracted to the sensible shoe crowd anymore than they would be to me.

Seriously? 'Disagree with me and you're not a real man'? It's perfectly possible to be a bloke and think the depiction of women in this hobby is, on the whole, terrible and juvenile.
Just to be clear, I'm not conflating nudity and 'hyper sexualisation'. Nudity is fine in context (though those parameters certainly seem to be elastic) but I'm heartily sick of the endless stream of tits out fighting women and the  'love them or you're a PC Nazi' attitude that goes along with them.

[answer_is_42]

Hope its not too far off topic
but...
have you ever thought about us germans...

It is, in fact, largely off topic and a little unhelpful. In fact, I'll wager there are far more positive (perhaps 'heroic' might do here, or, at the very least, neutral) portrayals of German/Nazi soldiers in miniature than all the positive female figures put together.

TBH at the end of the day I would assume something like getting a bag of army men as a kid would have more impact on whether you take up wargaming than some T&A on display.

I agree entirely; furthermore, I'd like to think that if more of the former happened, we'd have less (as a proportion, at least) of the latter. Disney need to make an animated retelling of Saving Private Ryan (or maybe Enemy at the Gates, so as to get the reindeer and snowman effect)!

And I don't think it corrupts male gamers.

I don't think it "corrupts" people any more than any other form of sexualised culture does; I was trying to ask why wargames figures seem to be unusually susceptible to this trend. In this respect I see the hobby, to an extent, corrupted.

Now, I am sure that these opinions are not universal. I am sure there are legions of flannel wearing sensible shoe shod fans of the Television show Girls who would be happy to tell me that my hobby is an insult to them, but I'm not attracted to the sensible shoe crowd anymore than they would be to me.

Different strokes for different folks I say. As long as you don't try to take my naked Kev White Harem girls away from me I won't try to take your Indigo Girls collection away from you.

Hum. You're quite angry, aren't you? Personally I'm a little unsure as to where I stand in your estimation, as I rather like cheesecake, have no idea who the "Indigo Girls" are (an American thing?) but, upon reflection, do actually own quite a sensible pair of shoes.

I tried to explain what I saw as the mindset of the anti cheesecake crowd and why I enjoyed collecting miniature naked or hyper sexualized women.

The rest of your sparkling commentary aside, lets run with that one. Why do you like collecting them? Because you see, I'm not trying to take your harem away from you (you do, after all, seem very attached to it); what I want to know is why do those wargamers who buy female figures, feel an overwhelming desire to buy not merely 'attractive' figures but, as you say, hyper sexualized ones?

Love the passive agressivness!
The OP is 100% right.

Seriously? 'Disagree with me and you're not a real man'? It's perfectly possible to be a bloke and think the depiction of women in this hobby is, on the whole, terrible and juvenile.
Just to be clear, I'm not conflating nudity and 'hyper sexualisation'. Nudity is fine in context (though those parameters certainly seem to be elastic) but I'm heartily sick of the endless stream of tits out fighting women and the  'love them or you're a PC Nazi' attitude that goes along with them.

Thanks to both of you, and the other supportive points. It's good to know I am not the only person who feels uncomfortable with this sort of thing.

[Duke Donald]

And what about the problem of violence!

I've checked a few ranges of wargaming minis and I was quite shocked by what I uncovered; essentially all of them carry weapons!

I sometimes wonder whether this is a hobby for mature, sensible grown-ups!

[Momotaro]

I don't think it "corrupts" people any more than any other form of sexualised culture does; I was trying to ask why wargames figures seem to be unusually susceptible to this trend. In this respect I see the hobby, to an extent, corrupted.

This is all really hypothetical isn't it?  Mix in with goalpost-shifting.

95% of female minis are sexualised - prove it.

Wargaming "unusually susceptible" to sexualisation - prove it.  Compared to dollshousing maybe, but fantasy, scifi, other gaming cultures?

Minis are "degrading" and "provoke violence" - prove it.

Is "sexualised culture" like teenage magazines, ad campaigns or hen nights corrupting?  Prove it.

Sexualisation is putting women off minis gaming - prove it.

Otherwise it's all a bit "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells".  And I mostly disagree with you.

I am not googling "erotic dollshouse" by the way...

[answer_is_42]

This is all really hypothetical isn't it?

Yup. the 95% figure was plucked out of thin air, of course it was. I'm pretty sure it's not that far off the mark but I'm not going to count.

You seem to have the impression that I have asserted a series of cast-iron facts; I have not. It seems to me that these things are the case, based on my own observations. I happen to think the repeated and overt sexualisation of women, without almost any alternative image, is a bad thing in of itself. Do you?

I'm not sure I have at any point said that these figures actually 'corrupt' people, only that the figures themselves are 'corrupted' (an unhelpful word, I'll admit). If I'm honest, I do worry that they are representative of a wider attitude towards women which can be seen across "geek culture". I think they have a factor to play in putting women off the hobby, but as Scurv has pointed out, there are a lot of other factors here.

[Michi]

what I want to know is why do those wargamers who buy female figures, feel an overwhelming desire to buy not merely 'attractive' figures but, as you say, hyper sexualized ones?

Now that´s a very precise question that can be answered in a simple way by one who admittedly is affected by the syndrome you name. Addiction would be too much, but passion could be the proper term. Therefore I´d answer the question this way:
"because they exist, look beautiful to me (and I am too clumsy to sculpt them myself)"

But I admit that the majority of female miniatures on my shelf is clad and not overly (or not at all) sexualized.

[Silent Invader]

As an aside, many moons ago I made dolls houses for my daughters and 1/12 has some interesting or odd (a matter of personal perspective) material ranging from the naked lady in a bath to brothels and bdsm parlours. The 1/6th scene has its sexualised elements too, 'realistic' naked dolls and dominatrices have all done the rounds.  Even model railways have some nod-nod-wink-wink elements including figures in sex positions.

The volume of sexualisation is nowhere near the variety available in 28mm but I would hazard that in 1/6th the detail is greater!  To my mind the volume in our hobby simply reflects the influences of fantasy and some sci-fi.  Not all sci-fi of course: my own post-apoc range has gritty women in big coats but that's because it's cold.

My wife and two (in their early 20s) daughters are all interested in my wargaming hobby. Neither find it strange and though I don't have any sexualised/naked minis in my collection neither are bothered by nudes, etc. We did look at some 28s with pronounced labia, which we all thought was strangely unnecessary for a mini to be gamed with, and wondered who might buy them: we concluded that it was probably collectors rather than players.

If it is collectors rather than players that mostly buy at the more explicit end of the scale then they're not really wargamers are they? ..... But perhaps that's a whole other debate.

[shandy]

I happen to think the repeated and overt sexualisation of women, without almost any alternative image, is a bad thing in of itself. Do you?

Maybe that's what it boils down to. I mean, if the majority of representations of Black people would consist of a racist stereotype of a big lipped, stupid, crack smoking welfare queen, wouldn't you think that this is a problem? And if the majority of representations of Americans were of a bible clutching, gun toting and lynching redneck, wouldn't you agree that this is a bad thing in itself?
So why does everyone fly off the handle when someone criticises hyper sexualised representations of women?

[answer_is_42]

If it is collectors rather than players that mostly buy at the more explicit end of the scale then they're not really wargamers are they? ..... But perhaps that's a whole other debate.

It's a good point to raise. I suppose in a way I am less concerned about the 'extreme end' of the scale because as you point out these are largely the preserve of 'collectors', people who consciously seek them out, as Michi says:

"because they exist, look beautiful to me (and I am too clumsy to sculpt them myself)"

What riles me is that sexual depictions of women are the norm in games otherwise totally non-sexualised. GW's Sisters of battle are a good example. There is literally no reason they need to be clad in figure-hugging armour; Space marines don't have muscles sculpted into their suits, at least not as the standard. There is equally no reason why there cannot be female Space Marines. But there are not. Instead there are battle nuns.

Maybe that's what it boils down to. I mean, if the majority of representations of Black people would consist of a racist stereotype of a big lipped, stupid, crack smoking welfare queen, wouldn't you think that this is a problem? And if the majority of representations of Americans were of a bible clutching, gun toting and lynching redneck, wouldn't you agree that this is a bad thing in itself?
So why does everyone fly off the handle when someone criticises hyper sexualised representations of women?

Exactly.

[Daeothar]

Oh my...

And I so promised myself to not get dragged into internet discussions anymore...

First, I'd like to state that I am not at all convinced by the OP's arguments. I agree that female miniatures in general tend to tilt towards the overtly sexual (with plenty of exceptions to that rule too, I might add), but I'd like to argue that most of the male miniatures do so as well.

It's just that we, as males, tend not to notice the over the top masculinity of our miniatures, because maybe we like to see our own male side highlighted? Just look at most torsos, arms or abs; I'm sure that only a very few of us look like that, but we don't balk at having ourselves represented by those miniatures, be that as a 1:1 representation of an RPG character, or as an entire army of barbarians or space marines.

In my experience, it's not different for those few women who do play wargames. In over 25 years of miniature gaming, I have played with and against quite a few girls/women on a regular basis. None objected to the nature of the miniatures at hand. In fact, just about all of them initially went for female armies (where available; my gaming history for the first 15 to 20 years almost solely existed out of GW offerings).

So just about all of them played Sisters of Battle, Witch Elves, Esher Gangers or Amazon teams. And even when they finally moved on to new armies, quite a lot of them then chose to convert or proxy their new army/team/gang/warband with all female miniatures.

And none of them ever complained about the way the female miniatures were sculpted! Actually, I'm quite sure that one or two of them even reveled in it.

Now, to be honest, I never really discussed the way females were depicted in miniaures with them, simply because the subject never came up. However, most of these female players were strong, independent and intelligent individuals in their own right and I'm sure that the rest of us gamers in the group would not have heard the end of it, had they had any objections.

Also; at one point, our gaming club (may it rest in peace) had about 15 members, and I believe there were 4 or 5 female members (granted; at least 3 of those were girlfriends of other players). And on game nights, when not actually playing, they tended to naturally gravitate towards each other, and not even from this female stronghold (which was often more vocal and 'present' than their male counterparts) were any complaints about the nature of the depiction of female miniatures ever voiced.

So I think we can also rule out the fact that one isolated female gamer would hold her opinion to herself because of the male environment she's in, as this particular group of female players would certainly have expressed any misgivings that they would have had.

Of course this is all based on my personal experience, and this club ceased to be when the gaming store it belonged to closed down about 7 or 8 years ago. So it may not be an accurate depiction of the general attitude of female gamers towards sculpts of female miniatures outside of this particular club.

But before that, when in uni, I lived and played in a different city, and there too, I've never heard of any objections or issues raised on this subject (although there were no female players there, just girlfriends tagging along).

Also (and again this is of course from personal experience only), my girlfriends at the time, and my wife now, have never had any issues with the sexualized depiction of women in miniature games, and none of those were or are into gaming, even though they appreciate the skill, effort and (dare I say) artistry going into sculpting and painting miniatures.

It is therefore my personal opinion that most of these discussions (usually started by males (!)), originate from a misplaced desire to be politically correct, where there is no need to be. Why be worried about the way women are depicted in miniaure games, when women themselves do not seem to object at all?

And why not be equally offended by the way males are depicted either?

I think this is because, much like the way men and women are depicted in film, paintings, sculptures and even literature, both genders are being depicted in an exaggerated way, highlighting the assets of their respective genders.

So females are depicted to be more buxom and seductive, whilst males are depicted to be more muscular and rugged than their real life counterparts. And both depictions are being exaggerated to be more attractive, just like in other media.

Because like I mentioned at the beginning of this (almost) book; very few, if any at all of us actually look like the minis we play with. At the end of the day, miniature (war)games are entertainment, and entertainment, these days almost by definition it seems, is over the top. Because depictions of the mundane are not as thrilling, exaggerations of all matter of things (violence, appearance, sexuality for instance) are, and always have been, accepted where entertainment comes into play.

My take on these things is; if the subject of the matter is not offended, why should I be?

But of course to each his or her own, and everyone is allowed to feel offended. Just don't expect to sway prevailing opinions or the subject itself. It's good to discuss these things and maybe get to consider other points of view though.

I myself, am not bothered in the least by scantily clad and sexually posed female miniatures, but I don't like those female miniatures depicting (naked) women in submissive and other demeaning poses, simply because that does not match the way I look at women.

And of course bare midriff and chainmail bikini's are a pet peeve of mine when it comes to it, simply because those are just daft to begin with...

As for why there are so few females involved in wargaming, whilst pretty well represented in other aspects of the hobby, I think Scurv made a very good point. As boys, we probably all had some toy soldiers to play with, so the whole concept of wargaming (as a more strictly regulated playing with toy soldiers) might simply be more familiar to us boys and men...

In closing though, I would like to leave you with one question to ponder though: why are you so offended by women being depicted as sexually desirable, but feel it is ok to play at killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people, regardless of gender or race?

In my opinion, killing people, and taking pleasure in it, could be considered infinitely more offensive and objectionable than showing off some women in revealing clothes and improbable poses...

[shandy]

I agree that female miniatures in general tend to tilt towards the overtly sexual (with plenty of exceptions to that rule too, I might add), but I'd like to argue that most of the male miniatures do so as well.

Show me five figures of females in plate armor that is not 'boob armor' and five men with armor that stresses their big schlongs and I might be willing to discuss your points.
And please, no more whining about political correctness, that has nothing to do with this. As most of the people here I can offer anecdotal evidence of my girlfriend who plays wargames and despises over sexualised figures - and it was not easy to find female pirates that didn't look like their blouses were too small, to say the least.