Women in wargames

[answer_is_42]

This has been said before in a few places but I'd be interested to know people's opinions. I've been thinking about it for a while and I genuinely feel that it's a conversation that wargamers should at least attempt to have. This isn't a post about female gamers, though it does certainly relate to the obvious gender imbalance in the hobby (I would refer you to Jon Peterson's excellent article if you want to ponder this further). Nor am I arguing that we need more female wargames figures per say.

Simply speaking, the representation of women in wargames, mainly though not exclusively in the fantasy and science fiction context, is pretty appalling, if not to  say blatantly sexist.

This is a subject that has obviously been tackled before, but I was prompted to post this by the latest such example, Outlaw Miniature's Wild West Exodus Kickstarter, in particular the "Ladies of the West" stretch goal. Compare their clothes to even the most scantily clad male figure. These figures are typical of the absurdly sexualised depiction of women which is pervasive in fantasy and sci-fi games; personally, I would be embarrassed to own these models.

Examples are of course legion, notable cases which jump to mind including anything made by Shadowforge, Infinity , and almost every female Games Workshop figure ever. In fact, pick a fantasy or science fiction miniatures line and you'll be hard pressed to find a non-overtly sexualised female figure or ten.

And then of course we have Brother Vinni's miniatures, which I would frankly and openly accuse of promoting violence towards women, not to say sexism of the worst kind. The fact that such figures appear to be so openly and enthusiastically accepted is indicative of how inured we are to this sort of thing. It is to my longstanding embarrassment that I initially posted a supportive comment on that thread; I'd like to think I have since grown up a bit.

There are of course positive portrayals of women, and this is where I would go some way towards drawing a line between historical and fantasy games. If there were an award for feminist wargames figures I'm pretty sure Minairons would be a solid contender.  But such examples are, I'm afraid to say, few and far between.

This is obviously not exclusive to wargames (pick a good selection of roleplaying books and look at the illustrations of female characters, for example), but that is no excuse. Nor is it a case of selling the occasional bare breasted warrior woman to teenage boys. These figures sell, and apparently sell well (if the sheer number of them is any indication). Why is this? Is wargaming really so corrupted? Speaking personally, I would be very reluctant to bring a female friend to Salute, say, so numerous are the companies selling these sorts of figures. Certainly there is no indication of the trend changing anytime soon. I would hazard to suggest that it is actually putting women off the hobby.

Anyway, that's my view. What do you people think?

[Michi]

If your depicted age is your actual one, I can reply that I never had a problem, bad conscience or hesitation to buy, paint and display the described miniatures in a period longer than your lifespan. Neither did ever a female person feel offended by seeing them on display in my wall cabinets. It´s a matter of personal taste and the buyer and painter is only consuming what somebody else sculpted, so who is to blame? I´d say nobody. There is a market for such miniatures and I am happy about people sculpting what I like to paint.
By the way: I use the miniatures I paint in my games of course.

[Cherno]

I don't see why the depiction of (female) miniatures would be exempt from the sexualization of pretty much everything in our culture. Women are supposed to be sexy, symbols of fertility and alluring, while men should be strong, aggressive leaders (to simplify it a whole lot). Look at all those barrel-chested, loincloth-wearing barbarian miniatures; they, too, bear the mark of  a deeply ingrained idea of gender stereotypes, looking ridiculous in their own way. The origin of such stereotypes are, of course, the traditional roles men and women held since the dawn of mankind and which are themselves based on how to make the most of limited resources in a dangerous environment, with war, sickness and food shortages always around the corner... But that line of thought is too much for this thread, so let's just say that miniature gamers should be expected to differentiate between representations of scantily-clad women in miniature form and real people. If one has the latest Playboy calendar hanging on the kitchen wall, does that mean he will view and treat all his female co-workers as oversexed nymphs? I think not

[Michi]

The origin of such stereotypes are, of course, the traditional roles men and women held since the dawn of mankind and which are themselves based on how to make the most of limited resources in a dangerous environment, with war, sickness and food shortages always around the corner...

Very well said. The roles are obviously clear: This is my attempt to illustrate what you are saying by some paintjob of mine... 

[Driscoles]

LoL....

But....

Sexual explicit pictures are not allowed in this forum.....

Its true, but this is fu+#* brilliant 

[Earther]

  That's an impressive weapon!

And that axe is quite big too.

 

[Oldben1]

I'll add my two cents, for what it's worth.  Do I like strong women in wargames?  I do.  Do I think women would go into battle without a top on, probably not.

It's a matter of preference I imagine.  Sure women are sexy, strong women sexier still, but I don't have naked miniatures around the house.  My daughter is 5 and that's the decision I've made.

I play mostly pulp anyways, and most of the woman have long skirts or pants.  Fantasy is just that, fantasy. 

[Agent Brown]

Annie the dice bag lady has already seen the need for more practically dressed women.
http://thedicebaglady.net/female-miniatures/
On the OP I agree that many if not most female minis are overtly sexual, often grotesquely so. I just don't buy them but there is obviously a market.

[Captain Blood]

Wearing my moderator hat:

Well, it's a fair enough topic for discussion.
Also, unfortunately, the type of controversial / opinion topic that often escalates quickly into unreasonableness.

So - forwarned is forearmed - if you're going to contribute to this discussion, please keep it civil and proportionate.


Wearing my own hat:

Apart from straight historical figures from 'traditional' periods (Ancients, Napoleonics, WW2 etc), so much of the world of miniatures today is driven by the overwhelming influence of the fantasy genre. And semi-naked barbarians and their nubile, scantily-clad womenfolk are an absolute staple of that entire genre, in literature, movies and art - and have been since its inception. Just look at the works of Frank Frazetta... Copied and expanded upon by a million others, not least through the last 40-odd years of D&D roleplaying and GW-style games... So I don't think we'll ever see the back of naked or semi-naked depictions of women in wargaming circles - not until everyone goes back to playing horse and musket games only, and eschews the whole sub-culture of sword and sorcery and all its infinite spin-offs.
Or until a lot less than 99.9% of wargamers are male

[Momotaro]

No nudity here?

I'm off to put some clothes on

[Dr. The Viking]

I must admit that I fail to find an actual problem in this.

The whole thing comes across to me as unbelievable first worldish and academic.  

One could argue that the whole of the hobby is grotesque and leads to nothing but excessive spending and waste.




I mainly paint stuff that I find looks nice. Hardly ever women.  



I hope my opinion doesn't fall in the realm of CB's four armed forewarning.

[v_lazy_dragon]

For what it's worth, all the 'tits-out overly sexualised under-dressed figures' (mainly the GZG gentleman's collectables range) in this house-hold belong to my girlfriend, who bought them to paint as 'a bit of a laugh'...

[Dr DeAth]

Great paint job; nice tones on the flesh and the groundwork on the base is well done too.

Re the OP; For me the LAF is about showcasing painting and model making talent, not discussing real world issues or sexual morality (I believe that belongs on TMP).

[answer_is_42]

If your depicted age is your actual one, I can reply that I never had a problem, bad conscience or hesitation to buy, paint and display the described miniatures in a period longer than your lifespan.

Congratulations.

I don't see why the depiction of (female) miniatures would be exempt from the sexualization of pretty much everything in our culture. Women are supposed to be sexy, symbols of fertility and alluring, while men should be strong, aggressive leaders (to simplify it a whole lot). Look at all those barrel-chested, loincloth-wearing barbarian miniatures; they, too, bear the mark of  a deeply ingrained idea of gender stereotypes

Yes, of course, I'm not arguing that wargaming should attempt some sort of revolution in this. My point is about the total imbalance in representation; there are far fewer naked men than women, and the sexualisation of women appears to dominate every depiction of them in scifi/fantasy wargames ranges. If men were all depicted in the same way it wouldn’t be such an issue, but they, as a general rule, are not.

so much of the world of miniatures today is driven by the overwhelming influence of the fantasy genre. And semi-naked barbarians and their nubile, scantily-clad womenfolk are an absolute staple of that entire genre, in literature, movies and art - and have been since its inception.

See above. What I feel increasingly uncomfortable with it the almost total lack of an alternative, and, perhaps more concerning, the similar lack of awareness that this might be a problem. "Everybody else does it" is not an excuse. If nothing else, it's illustrative of a serious lack of imagination on the part of game designers.

The whole thing comes across to me as unbelievable first worldish and academic.  

Guilty as charged, I suppose. Not sure what this has to do with anything I've written though.

[shandy]

I completely agree with the OP (but who would have thought otherwise  ) However, I find it sad that the first answers to his post were on the level of TMP, including the image. Great style of discussion and a real showcase for the intellectual achievements of our hobby! 

Anyway, I'll keep away from this thread, I don't want to waste the time of our poor moderator. answer_is_42, drop me an PM if you want to discuss your points, I'd be interested in developing this.

Before I let this thread take its course, I just want to point the interested reader to my take on this topic (https://wargamingraft.wordpress.com/2015/01/16/wargaming-warrior-women/) as well as to The Dicebag Ladies great project on great female miniatures (http://thedicebaglady.net/female-miniatures/)

Cheers
Shandy

P.S.: And of course the whole argument based on "the traditional roles men and women held since the dawn of mankind" is, let's say it euphemistically, on shaky grounds.