Women in wargames

[The Red Graf]

As I tried to express, I have nothing against normally kitted female fighters and I think there is probably a significant and growing market for them. If you sell some female mounted knights with bare heads (just like Space Marine Sergeants) I would gladly buy a set.

I hope it doesn't have to be a one way or the other situation, I think that there is room for both sexy and practical in our hobby.

Best of luck to you and your business.

Below is an image of my number one favorite woman in armor, produce her and I'll be the first in line.

[Annie]

As I tried to express, I have nothing against normally kitted female fighters and I think there is probably a significant and growing market for them. If you sell some female mounted knights with bare heads (just like Space Marine Sergeants) I would gladly buy a set.

I hope it doesn't have to be a one way or the other situation, I think that there is room for both sexy and practical in our hobby.

Best of luck to you and your business.

Below is an image of my number one favorite woman in armor, produce her and I'll be the first in line.

Exactly!

As for knights, I stock Perry Mounted men at arms, and have some female heads from Statuesque on the way, so I might bundle them into "kits"  after making sure it works myself and painting one or two up, as in all that armour, you lose female shape anyway. In fact I was at a reinactment recently and noticed how HUGE the dudes were in comparison to their little heads with all those layers 

And I'd love to produce that as a model. There is all sorts in the works at the moment!

Cheers
Annie

[Arlequín]

Good to see one of the "Monstruous Regiment of Women" posting on this topic at last. 

As far as Medieval womens heads go, there should also be a market in using them to depict males too. We commonly see the ubiquitous 'pudding basin' haircut on male bare heads, yet illustrations of the mid to late 15th Century commonly show shoulder-length hairstyles on men.

Practically speaking though, anything longer than just above the shoulder will create problems when attempting to match heads to figures.

On the topic of female armour, this is reputedly Caterina Sforza's armour (its more like 1530 and she died in 1509) which does seem to accommodate being worn over a dress. Note the more flared waist than is usual. It's not complete as the shoulder, upper chest and arm pieces are missing, but above the waist it is otherwise indistinguishable from a man's set.



The good lady herself;

Below is an image of my number one favorite woman in armor, produce her and I'll be the first in line.

   

The Assault Group already do her... http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/index.php?prod=1439

[Kings Curse]

As I tried to express, I have nothing against normally kitted female fighters and I think there is probably a significant and growing market for them. If you sell some female mounted knights with bare heads (just like Space Marine Sergeants) I would gladly buy a set.

I hope it doesn't have to be a one way or the other situation, I think that there is room for both sexy and practical in our hobby.

Best of luck to you and your business.

Not much to add here. As with most topics, discussions on this one tend to get pretty polarized, but one aesthetic direction definitely doesn't need to exclude the other, even if the internet can make it seem so.

[Cubs]

It's not a sexism issue for me, more of an accuracy issue.

Fantasy is just that, and there are as many mostly naked barbarian males as females. It's not overly serious, a bit titillating and if that's your bag, there we go.

But if you're trying to depict a female commander, or female fighters, or even simply female civilians ... often the choice is limited.

I can completely understand it from a business perspective, mind. It puts me in mind of people complaining about smaller nations in the world wars not being adequately represented. It's all about free trade. If the demand were high enough, the supply would be there. But a 'brave' company taking on a niche market is as likely to go out of business as to discover an untapped seam of gold.

By stocking 'real' female miniatures from a range of manufacturers, hopefully Annie will be able to gather together enough single blooms to form a bouquet that keeps the money trickling in as well as plugging a few gaps in the market.

   

[Valerik]

~

If the demand were high enough, the supply would be there. But a 'brave' company taking on a niche market is as likely to go out of business as to discover an untapped seam of gold.

By stocking 'real' female miniatures from a range of manufacturers, hopefully Annie will be able to gather together enough single blooms to form a bouquet that keeps the money trickling in as well as plugging a few gaps in the market.

So well and nobly said!!

I applaud your eloquence and Annie's business venture.

Valerik

& I do like the ladies, life size for choice, lead for diversion absent the former

[Annie]

Cheers Cubs, you are correct!

I know full well what miniatures I could make which would sell out straight away for sure, but it would make my soul die a little bit. It's more of a personal project than a business venture, I can't see myself making millions from it!

But I've built up my business with other things and this is yet another "wing", so I've not started up from scratch, invested a load of money and prepared to crash and burn, it's more of a living project I'll sensibly grow and hope that the demand sensibly grows with it. Hey I started this with close to no hope, expecting to get "Get out of here you frump!" and the reaction has been 99% positive, with way more "YES!" than I ever imagined, so hopefully this prove everyone wrong that there really is a demand for this wild niche of normal women.

I've had so many messages from men, women, and, what I didn't even think about - parents. So many "I am so glad you've done this, finally I can shop somewhere to get some minis for my little girl who is totally into [genre]" which is the best thing ever.

And it's great when people do what I had in mind from the start "bit from company A, bit from company B, and heck, why not, a bit from that company I haven't even heard of to try out" and ship to [X] country. So it is working.

I'd love it if the airtime this project is getting (and it's continuation) will encourage other manufacturers to follow suit, as my leap of faith shows "hey that whole thing about people only wanting sexy models is actually a myth caught in a vicious cycle!"

 
Annie

[FramFramson]

It's a laudable goal, Annie. I still do think there are plenty of reasonable miniatures out there, but having them all in one place will make it easier and encourage people to add to them.

Take that lizzie example - how many of us knew previously that TAG already had one?

[The Red Graf]

It's a laudable goal, Annie. I still do think there are plenty of reasonable miniatures out there, but having them all in one place will make it easier and encourage people to add to them.

Take that lizzie example - how many of us knew previously that TAG already had one?

I knew about her, but the assault group renaissancce troops I have ordered in the past look like hobbits next to my GW minis. I would like to see the Fairie Queen miniature painted.

[janner]

Splintered Light seem to be making an effort with their clothed shield maidens,
http://splinteredlightminis.blogspot.dk

[answer_is_42]

So what is my project? Well firstly I'm stocking as many "decent" female miniatures as I can get my hands on. Believable, appropriately dressed for whatever they're doing. Not existing purely as sex objects, they are going to war, not to bed.

'Make war not love', a new feminist slogan?

Hi Annie and welcome to the forum! Your project is admirable and exactly the kind of thing the hobby needs. Perhaps more importantly, as you say, is the input of women's opinions which I hope we will hear a lot more of! I look forward to seeing your stand at Salute.

[Jevenkah]

I haven't been on the boards in a bit and just spent much time catching up on this thread.

As a woman who wargames I feel quite qualified to give my OPINION. I'm mostly on the fantasy board, folks who have followed my threads have heard my "how-I-started-gaming" story (longer version here: http://swordandsorceryrpg.com/about-the-site/about-the-author/ ) short version- I met my husband just about 25 years ago. He had stopped running games but his friend convinced him to start a new one when I became interested after reading a Player's Handbook.

We played D & D on a battlemat, with what seemed like a lot of minis back then! I don't think I played 3 times before I wanted to buy my own miniature for my character. It turned out that I had a knack for the painting, and quickly taught my by-then-boyfriend  bits I had learned from ceramic painting as a wee girl (ceramics- very big among the women-folk in the 1970's) and we flew from there.

There are several points that have been discussed in this thread, I'll try to touch on the ones I feel most passionately about.

As for scantily clad miniatures pushing women away from the hobby, I have a hard time accepting that. Other posters have mentioned the GM's duty to his gaming group. Are the players comfortable with the plot? Mechanics? Taking turns? Folks showing up when they say they will? There are many elements to a successful and fun gaming group that go beyond cup size of a character's armor. Personal experience: I never left a group because I was unhappy with the miniatures on the mat but I did leave a group when I grew tired of being hit on by almost every guy at the table, even as I was sitting there with my eventual husband at my side and a promise ring on my finger. The undesirable attitudes of certain male players, including the penchant of the DM (who never personally acted improperly towards me) to have every male NPC in the game be keen on my character, soured any enjoyment I thought might be found there, far more that the Frazetta-inspired women fighter figures they played with.

Now, this anecdote goes to strengthen Scurv's argument that we, as gamers en masse, are not known for being socially adept. I am not saying that is a description that applies to all, or even most of us, but the stereotype exists because the behavior exists.

The hobby of RPGs and wargaming seems from my 25 years of playing to have evolved very slowly. Where some facets of the hobby have come barging in (plastics and resins where metal once ruled), some other obvious factors (many more women playing than when the hobby was born) have not seemed to effect the purchasable products. Many, many female miniatures continue to be based on "male-adolescent-fantasy" paintings. When I started painting Ral Partha figures in the 90s, even the ones that weren't standing like street-corner workers still showed plenty of flesh. I used to dig through the racks to find the Grenadier Julie Guthrie sculpts. A woman that sculpted real women! I have some of the prettiest figures by her.

(And to the newly joined Annie: good luck with your venture! Others have mentioned different manufacturers who do produce "reasonable" female fighters or figures (my husband and I have several shield maidens and civilians from the Foundry which I love), it's nice to see a distributor with that niche as a focus.)

Several posters have echoed what I've discovered as a women, mother, and human: Men and women are different. Boys and girls are different. Folk who live in the desert are different from those that live on the sea. That doesn't mean one of these sides are better, or more "right" than the other, or that people from one side can't see the points people on the other bring forth. It does mean that we view the world in ways that are not the same, and we have areas of excellence and weakness that are unique. ("Yes! We're all individuals!")

Saying that, I own fully-clothed shield maidens, scores of well-dressed civilian ladies and girls, and a handful of nudes/concubines/prisoners. The naked women are far easier to find than naked men. As a math geek, I dislike statistics without data, but the percentage of sexualized female figures from my window shopping has always seemed very high to my unofficial tallying. I'd be interested to see Annie's data on this.

So the question has been posed, "Why are there so many overtly sexual figures produced?" and the very simple answer is "Sex sells". There are many stats and studies to back that old adage. A better question for the sake of society and the industry is "Why does sex sell?" Why do sexy images, pictures, figures, work for advertisers and producers of goods? Are we buying these figures because they are the only ones available, or because there is something appealing about sexuality?

This is all make-believe. The wars we play, the kingdoms we conquer, the guards we use the "hey big fella, don't you want to take a break in this dark ally with me?" line with to try to open the gate. To me, it's about understanding the line between fantasy and reality. War is not fun, noble, empowering, and there are those that call us disturbed and disrespectful for playing pretend about it at all. The Time Machine was always one of my favorite books, and now I love the LAF for teaching me about H. G. Wells and his Little Wars. To paraphrase him, one only has to play at Little Wars a few times to see how futile and destructive real war is. And that was said before the Great War. My husband and I watched a program as I was fixing dinner last night that featured camera footage from a French pilot and photographer as they essentially flew over the trenches of the western front about 2 years after the battle of the Somme. It was breathtaking, and heartbreaking, and the thought of what happened to the human beings that had previously been in that cratered landscape set me to tears. I couldn't even blame the onions, because I wasn't cutting any.

Are we weird for playing at war? Writing about it? Making movies? Isn't it demeaning to human kind to roll dice and kill units and take them off the board without a thought? Or is it only an issue to have a half-clad female warrior doing the killing?  Some folks would say any glamorization of violence is a blight. One often hears the argument "Just because I watch gory horror movies in which women are raped and eaten doesn't mean I want to go act out those things." But the truth is, there are people who are excited and titillated by those images. Should we then not have those images in our movie theaters, on our television sets, in our books, and on our tabletops in our basements? Is it censorship, or preservation of human kind?

As may be obvious, I personally am way more offended by violence than sexuality. I hope my children (2 boys and a girl) never see a beheading in real life (no thanks to FOXTV), but I hope they grow up and see naked bodies, at the beach, in the woods, with a lover and mate. I hope they've learned enough from me that media is not reality, that growing up doesn't mean sex with several different people simply because "Everybody does it that way", but also that yes, you can cosplay in a chainmail bikini because you want to and you like it.


OP, are you making a distinction between what is female form, and what is sexy? Is sexy bad? The separation of sexy and exploitative is a difficult one, maybe because sexuality is a personal moral. I believe sex is good. Sex between people who care for each other, and are not hurting bystanders is good. Offspring come from sex and if it didn't work that way we would not have survived as a species to have this conversation. Sex as a weapon of genocide, sex as a powerplay, sex which is exploiting the people involved is not good. I'm just not sure where big-boobed miniatures fit into real-life sexual issues.

If more folks call for more clothed females, and buy them, I would have thought eventually the hobby would catch up. I would love to see more females like this (and have been looking for them since I started painting). I think there's plenty of room and money in the hobby for that niche.

I think there's room for double-D's in chain mail too.
Jevenkah

[Valerik]

Well said, well reasoned, and well put.

From an unimpeachable source.

I can find neither quarrel nor quibble with Jevenkah.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread, and our hobby.

Valerik

no witty rejoinder this time...

[The Red Graf]

Thanks Jevenkah I thought your response was really well thought out, particularly the part where you talked about pretend violence, and it made me come to terms with something that has been nagging at me since this thread started. I have three young children, a girl 9 and boys 8 and 7. I don't want why whip smart little girl to grow up to be defined by her looks or seen as an object not a person. While I love my chicks in chain mail I don't want my daughter to think that's what a girl should aspire to, and I have asked myself if I am somehow perpetuating a world that does just that by supporting these miniatures.

Your thoughts on pretend violence were spot on. I don't want any of my children to have to go to war. I want them to know how terrible real war is at the same time that I am looking forward to introducing them to tabletop war. I believe that the tabletop will give me a platform to talk to them about the difference between play and real life. The same is true of the over the top female miniatures. While I don't wave these in their faces, one day if they get into games they are going to see mine are somebody else's and while I don't really like the phrase teachable moment there you have it.

I have always tried to teach my daughter that she should never settle for a passive role in life. Don't dream about being a Princess, be the Warrior Queen. I think it's going to be good.

[FramFramson]

Good, well-reasoned post by Jevenkah, sharing her own story. I have nothing to add there!