Frostgrave - Rules

[SilverNines]

I don't understand the casting of spells using scrolls, if I read the responses correctly then a spellcaster who doesn't know the spell on a scroll is actually better than the one who actually created the scroll when the scroll gets used.

Spellcaster who doesn't know the spell: casts Strike Dead @ 18 for the willpower target

Spellcaster who actually created that scroll and uses it because their spell failed to cast: casts Strike Dead @ any number below 18 for the willpower test.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that any spellcaster using a scroll rolls a casting dice and it succeeds at whatever level is rolled.  Spellcasters that know the spell roll to cast, only need the scroll if they fail and could end up with a low casting roll.  Spellcasters that don't know the spell will get a variable result but don't suddenly become amazing at spells they'd otherwise fail at horribly.

Just seems very odd that someone who's done no research into the spell on a scroll would be better at casting it than someone who has dedicated years to it's research and actually creates those scrolls.

[JohnDSD2]

@SilverNines

Very true but then if its a spell where there is no will roll, such as Teleport then the scroll is a back up for that occasion when you really need to succeed.

[joe5mc]

Silvernines - I think it is pretty safe to say that the section on scrolls is not my finest hour of rules writing. In fact, I like your solution a lot better than my own.

This leads to a difficult decision - do I 'change' the rule in an errata, basically tossing out what is in the book? Do I wait and change it in a supplement? Do I just leave it until some possible second edition?

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this issue, as obviously it is bigger than just the scroll question.

[Morgan]

I would say that there is no shame in an official, easily-located Errata document that is updated as and when issues are discovered. Nobody ever writes a set of rules correctly first time and few reasonable people would expect it to be so. Ideally, this would be clearly linked from the Osprey site, etc. so that it can be found by people who don't frequent this particular forum.

On the specific question of scrolls, if you think it's a change that is immediately for the better, I believe that you should change-and-clarify it in the Errata. Costs nothing, helps everyone.

If someone happens to run a tournament, they can then say: "All rulings and changes in the Errata dated dd/mm/yyyy are correct for this game." Or play their own house rules. Or the rules as originally written. Or whatever.

(Edited for extra thoughts).

[Mr. Peabody]

This leads to a difficult decision - do I 'change' the rule in an errata, basically tossing out what is in the book? Do I wait and change it in a supplement? Do I just leave it until some possible second edition?

All three, if fate allows. 
 
Errata for now, in the FAQ.
Squeeze a note about it into Thaw of the Lich Lord
Wrap it all up nice and tidy, should a second edition hit the shelves.

[Mr. Peabody]

A question, if I may, regarding Wizard Eye...

Is it possible to cast Grenade via a Wizard Eye?

Would the point of origin be the 'eye' or the casting Wizard?

[ImhotepMagi]

All three, if fate allows. 
 
Errata for now, in the FAQ.
Squeeze a note about it into Thaw of the Lich Lord
Wrap it all up nice and tidy, should a second edition hit the shelves.

Agreed. I would keep the errata online in the FAQ pdf and maybe copy that errata to the back of a supplement book if pages allow. Each new supplement having errata for the previous book would be great for those with limited internet access. A master errata should always be available online as a living document (i.e. updated regularly).

As for second editions, definitely wait a bit until we've ferreted out all issues. It's really not necessary until the errata becomes truly unwieldy.

[SilverNines]

Silvernines - I think it is pretty safe to say that the section on scrolls is not my finest hour of rules writing. In fact, I like your solution a lot better than my own.

It's much easier to sit back and comment on an isolated thing such as the scrolls than it is to write a set of rules that captures something new and works as a whole though, I'm impressed with the rules even if there's some bits I'd like to improve.  I'm glad you like the suggestion though.  The idea of scrolls being a safety net was a new one to me and a nice mechanic, the two just didn't sit alongside each other in my mind.

This leads to a difficult decision - do I 'change' the rule in an errata, basically tossing out what is in the book? Do I wait and change it in a supplement? Do I just leave it until some possible second edition?

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this issue, as obviously it is bigger than just the scroll question.

Errata that actually changes the rules are tricky, I'd suggest keeping errata as corrections and clarifications but add something for recommended house rules that you believe improve things based on the wider testing that the game is getting (our group are using the modified campaign suggestions from the bad-karma site for example).  Then update it however you like in a version 2.

[ducat]

What is scroll issue. If you have a scroll ANY wizard can use it to cast at a base cast number.

IN ADDITION ... if the wizard knows the spell and has failed to cast tbey may then use the scroll to turn failure into success.

So a wizard that knows the spell on a scroll may use it in an extra way. Thats fair I think.

Of course you can also simply add an optional alternate scroll use rule so players can pick what they want to use in their games/campaign like the critical rule.

[SilverNines]

What is scroll issue. If you have a scroll ANY wizard can use it to cast at a base cast number.

That's not actually the case, if you don't know the spell then yes, if you do then you try to cast the spell normally and if you fail the scroll lets you succeed at the lower number.  I just had the perfect example where I ended up using a scroll on my strike dead spell cast to have it succeed, my opponent easily passed the "5" he needed to resist, if I hadn't known the spell it would have been a target of "18".  The bit that doesn't fit is that for something like Strike Dead where there's value in the casting roll you're actually better off knowing nothing about the spell you're trying to cast from a scroll because it will end up casting at a higher number (and so harder to resist).

[ducat]

But you do not HAVE to use the scroll that way. You may also just cast it off the scroll without rolling a dice if you wish even if you know the spell.  The way you used it is in addition to this way....it turned a failure into a success  (though for a will resist this is not always a better option)

[joe5mc]

Mr. Peabody - yes you can cast grenade through Wizard Eye. The point of origin would be the Wizard Eye.

[SilverNines]

But you do not HAVE to use the scroll that way. You may also just cast it off the scroll without rolling a dice if you wish even if you know the spell.  The way you used it is in addition to this way....it turned a failure into a success  (though for a will resist this is not always a better option)

I'd love that to be true but that's not the way it's been explained (unless I've misunderstood, which is certainly possible).  If you know the spell already you don't get the option to just cast it from the scroll.

[joe5mc]

As the rules are written in the errata.

1) A wizard who doesn't know the spell, using a scroll, autocasts the spell at the casting number.
2) A wizard who does know the spell CANNOT use it that way. Instead, he rolls to cast. If he fails, he may use the scroll to automatically cast the spell with a casting number equal to what he rolled.

As I've said, I think this rule could have been better written, or perhaps I could have come up with a better rule. For now though, that is the official rule. 

I will continue to ponder this, how it might be improved, and how best to present any change.

[ducat]

started a thread to discuss scrolls rather than clutter this section of the board -

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=82388.0