Thaumaturge Discussion (Customization, Tactics, Modeling, etc.)

[Philhelm]

This thread is devoted to all things related to my favorite school of magic in Frostgrave:  Thaumaturgy.  I hope to generate discussions about Thaumaturge creation and development, henchmen selection, tactics, modeling, and even theme ideas.  Please don't hesitate to show off your Thaumaturge and his henchmen, and if he has a name and backstory, please share it.

I will start off with my thoughts about creating a Thaumaturge.  Admittedly, I have not yet even played a single game of Frostgrave, but we must start somewhere.

Why choose the Thaumaturge?  The Thaumaturge is the obvious choice for fans of D&D style clerics, healers, white mages, and "holy" magic.  While wizards can take spells from any school, the Thaumaturge will have a head start on healing and defensive magic casting rolls, and will presumably be able to field a party that is more resistant to injuries and death when compared to most other factions.  This should translate into increased wealth by preventing the deaths of party members occasionally.  It is better to purchase a magic sword than a new henchman, after all.  Finally, with more reliable healing, the Thaumaturge may have an edge when it comes to failed spells and empowered spells, as he has a greater potential to mitigate the penalty of lost Health.

Spell Selection:

The Thaumaturge must take three spells from the school of Thaumaturgy.  Obviously, the spell combinations are almost limitless, and different choices can be more valid than others based upon individual tactics, but I would suggest taking the following three spells during character creation:

1. Heal:  This is the most obvious spell to take, and is perhaps the point of taking a Thaumaturge to begin with.  It can help mitigate damage to your wizard and his henchman, and has the lowest casting value within the school so is the easiest spell to cast in order to gain experience.

2. Restore Life:  Originally, I thought that this spell could be taken later but considering that a spell's casting value can only be lowered once during level up, regardless of the number of levels gained at one time, it seems that with a casting value of 20 it would be best to take early in order to have more opportunities to lower the casting value.  Perhaps henchmen could easily be replaced later in the campaign, but it should provide a financial edge, especially if the Apprentice is slain.  Obviously, this spell should not be taken if playing a one-off game.

3. Shield:  Not necessarily a given, but it can be used to increase the survivability of your wizard and his henchman, and has a moderate casting value.  I particularly like the fact that it can increase the Armor of the Wizard and the Apprentice, who cannot benefit from mundane armor.  In addition, it can bolster heavily armored henchmen even further.  It has good synergy with Heal, since the +2 Armor could mean the difference between life and death, and may grant the wizard an additional chance to heal the wounded model.

Dispel:  Definitely a spell to take, and could possibly be taken instead of Restore Life or Shield.  If an enemy wizard is frustrating you with one of his enhancements, you can at least have the opportunity to remove it.  Potentially a game winning ability with a lot of tactical uses.

Blinding Light:  Another potentially useful spell to take with a moderate casting value.  This could also be taken in lieu of Restore Life or Shield.  It seems that it would be most useful against a strong character or monster.

Miraculous Cure:  There is absolutely no reason to not take this spell in order to preserve your wizard and apprentice, although I think that it can wait until after the first game is played.  Obviously, it is pointless if playing a one-off game.

Banish:  A very flavorful and potentially powerful ability, but extremely limited in use since it only effects demons.  I wish that undead were included, but oh well.  Probably worth taking to master the school, but I see no reason to rush in obtaining the spell, unless after playing several games it appears that demons are frequent and powerful enough in order to warrant taking this spell over other spells or upgrades.

Circle of Protection:  Same as Banish, although it is a defensive version of the spell.

In addition, the Thaumaturge must take one spell each from the three aligned schools of magic (Soothsayer, Sigilist, Illusionist).  There are far too many options to provide a definitive list of must have spells, but I would recommend the following:

Soothsayer:  I think that Wizard Eye would be the best option, since it has a modified casting value of 10, and provides high strategic use.  You can cast spells on hostile or friendly models without actually being within their line of sight (but they do have to be within line of sight of the Wizard Eye).  This could be invaluable if facing an opponent with plenty of ranged models, as you will be able to mitigate your wizard's exposure to enemy attacks.  Will Power deserves honorable mention, for some added magical resistance, but would have a modified casting value of 12.

Sigilist:  I would recommend taking Absorb Knowledge, which would have a modified casting value of 10, and can give you 50 additional experience points after each game (i.e. one-half of an additional level gain).  Considering that most of the Thaumaturge's abilities are not offensive, he will probably be trailing in experience points when compared to other, more offensive spellcasters.  Push is a decent tactical ability for a casting value of 10, but frankly, you will probably be casting other, more useful spells anyway, so an Out of Game spell would probably be of more use.  Write Scroll would be another alternative, but only if you roll a 14 between games.

Illusionist:  Looking for spells with lower casting values, I think that Teleport is the clear choice.  There is obviously tactical use here, but I think the greatest ability is the chance for your wizard to escape if it is clear that he is about to be overwhelmed.  Frostgrave is all about the wizard's development and survivability, after all.

Finally, the wizard must choose two spells from the remaining five neutral schools of magic (Elementalist, Witch, Chronomancer, Summoner, Enchanter).  Plenty of options to choose from, but I would suggest the following spells.

Enchanter:  I think that Enchant Weapons is almost mandatory, since some creatures can only be harmed by magic or magic weapons.  Especially at low levels, it would be undesirable to encounter a creature resistant to mundane weapons with no opportunity for your henchmen to counter the creature.

Witch:  Casting Familiar will grant an additional 2 Health with a casting value of only 12, and you only have to cast it once, unless the wizard is removed as a casualty.

Note that the Thaumaturge has no offensive spells.  I was tempted to take one of the Elemental spells, but the minimum casting value is 14, taking into account the Thaumaturge's penalty to cast spells from neutral schools of magic.  With the added risk of receiving damage from miscast spells, it seems that perhaps the Thaumaturge would simply be better off shooting a bow or crossbow if not casting any of his other spells.  As an alternative to choosing the spell, Familiar, I could justify taking a general offensive spell such as Elemental Bolt and simply investing into its casting value as the wizard gains levels, but I would not rely upon it too heavily with an initial casting value of 16.  Unfortunately, it seems that the Thaumaturge will struggle to keep up in experience when compared to offensive wizards, since most of the experience gains are based upon killing enemy models, but I have seen another thread discussing that issue and providing possible home-brewed solutions.

Weapon Selection:

The staff is clearly better than the hand weapon, in my opinion, due to the added defense in melee; furthermore, some of the magical staves provide fee empowerment points, which is probably more useful than +1 attack or damage.

Otherwise, I see absolutely no reason to take a single hand weapon over a hand weapon and dagger, or a two-handed weapon.  It is definitely worth the extra five gold to bolster your wizard.  In fact, the miniature I will use as my wizard is Hanseth Dimguard, a metal Reaper figure wielding a massive mace.  I think that I will give my wizard a two-handed weapon rather than a staff in order to make him slightly more combat oriented like a traditional cleric (this could stack well with the spell, Elemental Hammer, for a combined bonus of +7 damage).

Edit:  A magical hand weapon that confers +2 Fight actually is worthwhile, as it is the only magical weapon that has a +2 bonus.  This can be useful in winning melee combat and defending against ranged attacks.

It would also seemingly be worthwhile to take a bow or crossbow, for added tactical ability.  However, this would take away from the wizard's other item options (if I recall correctly), which may be more useful.

[Philhelm]

I was hoping for some counter suggestions for starting spells and equipment for a Thaumaturge.  I'm sure that the Necromancer will probably be the most popular wizard (or perhaps the Elementalist), but surely there's interest for the "cleric."

[Daniel36]

There is ALWAYS interest for the "cleric", but it does attract the niche within the niche of players, I suppose. I am still on the fence about what to take. Haven't received my book yet. My friend, whom I thought would be a dead ringer for the Necromancer is thinking about taking the witch, so I might just go for the Necromancer, just because I never take it, but we shall see. I find thaumaturgy a very interesting choice too, as it closely matches what I usually like.

[drfunk]

The cleric from my group tuck the summoners Summon Demon spell with plans to boost it as he plays in order to summon angels. Nice and thematic,  and if you can get a major dem-er angel down its nothing to be sniffed at. Doubt he'll be getting much early utility out of it outside of a panic-cast with his hp.

[Philhelm]

The cleric from my group tuck the summoners Summon Demon spell with plans to boost it as he plays in order to summon angels. Nice and thematic,  and if you can get a major dem-er angel down its nothing to be sniffed at. Doubt he'll be getting much early utility out of it outside of a panic-cast with his hp.

That's a good idea.  I've considered something similar in taking the Necromancer's Control Undead spell in order to mimic Turn Undead; however, with a -6 to casting it wouldn't be a realistic investment of experience gains in order to make it reliable (or would it?).

[gorillacrab]

It'll be interesting to follow this thread to see if anyone can develop a spell package that allows a Thaumaturge to really stand toe-to-toe with more offensive-type casters.

Last night our group played our first FG game. I played the Thaumaturge in a 3-Wiz game between a Necromancer and Elementalist. The game mechanics were great but by turn 3 6-of-7 of my soldiers were all dead. Of course some very hot dicing by the Elemental player was a factor but so was the firepower of the other wizards.

Three quick notes: the OP was right in saying that Teleport is a must-use spell from another stable. Good fun to use too.

2. In a one-off or demo game with a Thaumaturge consider giving him extra archery firepower to compensate for his less-aggressive spells. In our game, the other two parties' best fighter was a Knight while we got a Ranger (who got ripped up by a Demon!)

3. And Blinding Light is one of T's meatier spells - but it does allow the target to make Will rolls in later turns to cancel the effect, whereas nasties like Elemental Ball are likely to fry characters in a single go.

Again, as he is largely a Medic/Healer facing more aggressive casters, it will be interesting to see how this caster may evolve and is used.
- Vlad

[Xintao]

My first and only game so far, I played a T-Mage. I got ripped to shreds.

I will admit I rolled like crap to cast spells, but my wizard had nothing to compete with the Elementalist. I was thinking a cleric to keep the front line troops healed. Not really effective when Heal's range is touch. I might give it another go. Tonight I will try a Chronomancer.

Xin

[joe5mc]

I've been thinking it might be best to use Blinding Light against guys that are already in combat. It's not a shooting attack, so it can target an enemy figure in combat without effect your own guy.

Shield on a Knight produces a very scary warrior.

You can pick up Mind Control from the Soothsayer school for a great aligned spell.

[gorillacrab]

"I've been thinking it might be best to use Blinding Light against guys that are already in combat. It's not a shooting attack, so it can target an enemy figure in combat without effect your own guy.

Shield on a Knight produces a very scary warrior.

You can pick up Mind Control from the Soothsayer school for a great aligned spell." - from Joe

Thanks for the tips - it will be intriguing to test drive T-man with these modifications.

What makes the quest to maximize the T's starting spell book such an interesting challenge is the difference he poses compared to classic D/D. In most dungeon games, the cleric/healer almost always works with a fireball-flashing "Wizard" in a heal/attack partnership. Here you have him working solo so he will be much more reliant on boosted soldiers to do the damage.
- Vlad
- also, thanks the elegance of the d-20 single roll mechanic. So good.

[Philhelm]

My first and only game so far, I played a T-Mage. I got ripped to shreds.

I will admit I rolled like crap to cast spells, but my wizard had nothing to compete with the Elementalist. I was thinking a cleric to keep the front line troops healed. Not really effective when Heal's range is touch. I might give it another go. Tonight I will try a Chronomancer.

Xin

What spells did you select?