Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Evil Doctor]

Great discussion guys!

Regarding miniatures, two questions: are those Asgard Orcs available in the UK? Nice models. And have you seen these guys?

http://www.alternative-armies.com/products/oh2-hob-goblin-raiders

I have these models. Nicely stooped, long arms, leering but not comical faces. There are some nice miniatures in the AA range, some comedy Goblins, but generally the Orcs are good. Think I might get some more...

EvilD

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

A good discussion.  As it now covers multiple pages I may have missed a bit. 

I apologise for my long and less scholarly post.  It has been some years since I have read LotR and I don't intend to read it again for a long time, having read it perhaps 10 times over 30+ years (I have owned 3 copies).

I agree, all orcs are smaller than humans.  I think the uruks are probably quite muscled and would think of their strength in much the same way as that of chimpanzees - they are smaller than us, but you wouldn't want to pick a fight with one!  Are Uruk-hai a subset of uruks in general.  Without reading LotR again, I remember that Uruk-hai is capitalised, whereas uruks are not.  They often say of themselves "we are the fighting Uruk-hai".  I think of this as a phrase used by an elite unit as a part of it's esprit de corps (compare with the Fighting First in the American army) - although here it isn't a title as it is not capitalised.  This is a very long way of asking are Uruk-hai and elite within a warrior breed of orcs?
I would also agree that orcs had some degree of technical ability. I often think the explosion in the culvert at Helm's Deep might be gun powder.

Is it also correct that there were no uruks in the first age?  Were they weaker than orcs (or just the uruks) of the Third Age?  They seem to lack stamina or speed.  Beleg has to recover from wounds before he pursues the orcs that had captured Turin and yet he is easily able to catch up with them. 

Finally, how much did orcs shun the sun.  In LotR it seems the normal orcs didn't tolerate the sun well.  But in the First Age this isn't so clear.  Again, to go to the pursuit by Beleg, he came across the orcs camped at night, implying that they rested at night and must be travelling in the day.

Perhaps not in this thread, could Hobgoblin and others suggest how they would depict orcs for Dragon Rampant?  Or possibly a thread for Tolkienising Dragon Rampant.  Plenty of issues there!  The depiction of magic, the nature of Nazgul, best models for elves etc.   

[rebelyell2006]

Finally, how much did orcs shun the sun.  In LotR it seems the normal orcs didn't tolerate the sun well.  But in the First Age this isn't so clear.  Again, to go to the pursuit by Beleg, he came across the orcs camped at night, implying that they rested at night and must be travelling in the day.

Given that they were made by Morgoth, who hated the sun and the bright Silmarils, it could be less a physical problem and more of a psychological hatred of the sun instilled by Morgoth and Sauron.  Angband, Mordor, and the various mountains were dark due to clouds and volcanic activity, so their natural homes were not well lit.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Yes, I think you are right that it is psychological.  The Battle of the Pelennor Fields was fought under the darkness that emanated from Mordor, but I believe I am right in thinking that the battle of the Morannon was fought in daylight without the dark clouds. 
I suspect that orcs feared the sun, particularly when in small groups or on their own, but could fight effectively in sun when there was a large number of them.  I would also suspect that they had good night vision, but still saw best when in full light and so battles on a large scale were more practical in daylight.
Again, these are my impressions based on reading the LotR last about ten years ago (although I have recently re-read the Silmarillion a month ago).

[Hobgoblin]

I agree, all orcs are smaller than humans.  I think the uruks are probably quite muscled and would think of their strength in much the same way as that of chimpanzees - they are smaller than us, but you wouldn't want to pick a fight with one! 

I think that's right. Three supporting points: the Appendices describe the uruks as "black orcs of great strength"; the strength in Grishnakh's arms is "terrifying, and he runs with a hobbit under each arm - quite a feat if you think about it; and The Battle of the Fords of the Isen says that the only mail made in Isengard was the "heavy and crude" mail made by the orcs. That last point suggests that the mail was too heavy to be of much use to the Dunlendings - yet the "heavily armed" uruks are trained "to move at great speeds for long distances".

Are Uruk-hai a subset of uruks in general.  Without reading LotR again, I remember that Uruk-hai is capitalised, whereas uruks are not.  They often say of themselves "we are the fighting Uruk-hai".  I think of this as a phrase used by an elite unit as a part of it's esprit de corps (compare with the Fighting First in the American army) - although here it isn't a title as it is not capitalised.  This is a very long way of asking are Uruk-hai and elite within a warrior breed of orcs?

There's been a lot of debate about whether "Uruk-hai" is synonymous with "uruks". Tolkien is very inconsistent with capitalisation (orc/Orc, etc.), but "Uruk-hai" is always capitalised. The Isengarders seem to use it exclusively, but, as you note, they usually qualify it: "the Uruk-hai of Isengard", "the fighting Uruk-hai". But of course, their exclusive use of it doesn't mean that it's not applicable to the uruks of Mordor.

Now, the Mordor tracker talks about the trouble at Cirith Ungol being caused, inter alia, by a "pack of rebel Uruk-hai". I don't think that can be easily read as reference to Isengarders, but it does fit with Shagrat's description of "that filthy rebel Gorbag" and his followers. Shagrat and Gorbag are both uruks ("Always the poor Uruks to put slips right"), and their well-matched followers seem to be too. Note that the tracker's information matches very closely the info that Shagrat had to report: a "sort of small dwarf-man" (Frodo); "a great Elf in bright armour" (Sam, as reported by Snaga) and "a pack of rebel Uruk-hai" (the filthy rebel Gorbag and his troop). For me, that settles it. The terms also seem to be used interchangeably in the Appendices, and Christopher Tolkien notes that "uruks" is an "Anglicisation" of the Black Speech "Uruk-hai".

That said, I think it's clear that the Uruk-hai of Isengard are a bit different from their Mordor equivalents: a bit bigger on average (possibly as a result of Mannish blood) and differently equipped.

I would also agree that orcs had some degree of technical ability. I often think the explosion in the culvert at Helm's Deep might be gun powder.

Yes - and note that it's the Orcs (not the Dunlendings) who have brought and deployed the "blasting fire".

Is it also correct that there were no uruks in the first age?  Were they weaker than orcs (or just the uruks) of the Third Age?  They seem to lack stamina or speed.  Beleg has to recover from wounds before he pursues the orcs that had captured Turin and yet he is easily able to catch up with them. 

The Morgoth's Ring passage implies that Saruman had rediscovered a technique of Morgoth's for breeding orcs. So it's fair to assume that Morgoth had bred especially large orcs in the distant past.

Finally, how much did orcs shun the sun.  In LotR it seems the normal orcs didn't tolerate the sun well.  But in the First Age this isn't so clear.  Again, to go to the pursuit by Beleg, he came across the orcs camped at night, implying that they rested at night and must be travelling in the day.

I don't think the First Age texts will always necessarily match Tolkien's final conception. After all, he didn't publish them himself.

The Hobbit says that orcs "don't like the sun". And the Northerners protest about it. But Ugluk makes them run all day in it with threats and menaces. And the Mordor-orcs don't complain.

[nicknorthstar]

Uruks are definitely strong, their race across Rohan carrying the hobbits was no mean feat.

I think Uruks were a Third Age thing, Tolkien talks about Blacks Uruks emerging from Mordor for the first time. The other issue is that The LotR is a story, whereas The Silmarillion is a history and of an Age and doesn't go into close detail of 'orc-kind'. There may have been Orc Soldier classes in the First Age, we don't know. My impression that Uruks (and later Isengard Half-Orcs) were bred to overcome the short comings of the normal Orc type, in a final push to take over the West of Middle-Earth. The Orcs of any size were going to struggle against the Noldor and Numenoreans.

Gunpowder. I think this was a wizard thing. Gandalf had access to it, so did Saruman. Unusually, I think PJ's film covered it accurately.

Sunlight. I think this is a myth device to make the baddies seem 'other' in Middle-Earth. In this published writings, Tolkiens just says as creatures of evil they cannot abide sunlight. In some of Christopher Tolkiens note books, you get a deeper analysis. One that I recall was that Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, tried to ravish a certain female Maia. She exploded in his face, burning him so bad he remained charred forever and in pain and fear of light. The Maia's spirit then went into the sky to become the sun. Because Morgoth couldn't cope with her light, his servants became like him, they are of course bond by his will as well. Angband is belching out smoke and fumes constantly, I think they were used to cover the daylight movements of his servants in the same way Sauron did.

[Hobgoblin]

Uruks are definitely strong, their race across Rohan carrying the hobbits was no mean feat.

I think Uruks were a Third Age thing, Tolkien talks about Blacks Uruks emerging from Mordor for the first time. The other issue is that The LotR is a story, whereas The Silmarillion is a history and of an Age and doesn't go into close detail of 'orc-kind'. There may have been Orc Soldier classes in the First Age, we don't know. My impression that Uruks (and later Isengard Half-Orcs) were bred to overcome the short comings of the normal Orc type, in a final push to take over the West of Middle-Earth. The Orcs of any size were going to struggle against the Noldor and Numenoreans.

I think the one bit of evidence for "proto-Uruks" is this passage from Morgoth's Ring:

"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

That indicates that the recipe for the "enhanced" uruks was rediscovered by Saruman - although it leaves an open question as to what Sauron did 500 years earlier to produce his uruks.

There is, in a couple of places IIIRC, a suggestion that orcs had dwindled in power and stature from earlier, more dangerous incarnations. The Morgoth's Ring passage would fit with that. And of course, as you pointed out earlier, some of those earlier, more fearsome orcs may have been "Boldogs" - corrupted Maiar.

Gunpowder. I think this was a wizard thing. Gandalf had access to it, so did Saruman. Unusually, I think PJ's film covered it accurately.

Yes, I think so. The interesting bit about its use at the Hornburg is that it's Saruman's goblins, rather than his Men, that deploy it.

Sunlight. I think this is a myth device to make the baddies seem 'other' in Middle-Earth. In this published writings, Tolkiens just says as creatures of evil they cannot abide sunlight. In some of Christopher Tolkiens note books, you get a deeper analysis. One that I recall was that Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, tried to ravish a certain female Maia. She exploded in his face, burning him so bad he remained charred forever and in pain and fear of light. The Maia's spirit then went into the sky to become the sun. Because Morgoth couldn't cope with her light, his servants became like him, they are of course bond by his will as well. Angband is belching out smoke and fumes constantly, I think they were used to cover the daylight movements of his servants in the same way Sauron did.

Interesting stuff! Yes, I think the sunlight thing seems to be more symbolic than physical - a strong aversion with only mild physical effects (the giddiness, etc., described in The Hobbit). Effectively, the Northerners say "we can't run in the sun", and Ugluk says "oh yes you can!". And run they do.












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[Hobgoblin]

Just as an aside, have you seen the pictures of Pauline Baines? She was a friend of the Profs, and had direct contact with him in regards to the imagery of the characters of Middle-Earth. In Bilbos Last Song there are some Goblins illustrated.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/book/bilbos-last-song/id563892510?mt=11

Not saying they are perfect, but their faces, helmet shape and use of scale armour are something figure designers can take on board.

That's a really interesting link - thanks! I loved Pauline Baines' illustrations for Narnia and Tolkien's Farmer Giles of Ham when i was  kid. Frustratingly, the goblins aren't easy to make out in any of the online reproductions - I may have to buy the book!

[Arthadan]

Great thread! I'm really enjoying it.

About Orc size, as noted earlier, I think is important to note that they are usually noted as having bowed backs. So they could be human-sized but their bowed backs would make them shorter in height. Of course, as discussed above there are also smaller breeds.

Yes, I think so. The interesting bit about its use at the Hornburg is that it's Saruman's goblins, rather than his Men, that deploy it.

Yes, but it doesn't mean they've created it. I rather think Saruman instructed them to use it, as they were his own troops. Makes sense he trusted them more than the Dunlendings allies.

Interesting stuff! Yes, I think the sunlight thing seems to be more symbolic than physical - a strong aversion with only mild physical effects (the giddiness, etc., described in The Hobbit). Effectively, the Northerners say "we can't run in the sun", and Ugluk says "oh yes you can!". And run they do.

I think what happens to Orcs with sunlight is similar to Gollum. He can function under it, but not as well as in darkness. It effects on them seems physicall to me. this is when Bilbo escapes from Goblin-town:

Of course they soon came down after him, hooting and hallooing, and hunting among the trees. But they don't like the sun: it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy.

Sounds like it makes them disoriented, as if exposed to too much light. Much like the morning sun on a hangover morning, if you take my meaning, Mr. Frodo  

[nicknorthstar]

In one of Tolkien's drawings, you see in the background Thangorodrim, and it's belching out black smoke. I couldn't find it on the net to send a link to.

Thanks for the quote on the larger Orcs in the 1st Age, I think that seals it! Sauron of course had no shortage of Man stock, for most of the 2nd and 3rd ages he is pretty much Master of the World outside of the West. It seems even during his long absence, he is worshipped as God.

One of the fantastic and frustrating (in equal measures) parts of Christopher Tolkien's books of notes is we get an insight into the Profs thought processes, but they are usually contradictory. I found this especially true of the section on the origins of Orcs. You feel the Prof is arguing with himself. He knows Orcs came from Elves, but doesn't want to admit it...to himself   Anyway, one of his alternative theories goes like this:
Orcs are not bred from Elves. Some are undoubtedly caught and tormented. But the Orcs true are bred from Men. Men appear in Middle-Earth earlier than Elves thought. In the long captivity of Morgoth in the West, Sauron finds men first, captures them and starts to breed Orcs as an army ready for his masters return. Twisting lifeforms is a Sauron speciality, were-wolves are another of his creations, one of his titles is Lord of Were-wolves. So making Orcs is part of his own recipe book. Remember this was one of Tolkien's theories, not a Middle-earth fact.

Saruman. Strangely, Saruman seems to trust his Orcs over men. It's Uruks he sends out to intercept the Fellowship, they have the gunpowder at Helms Deep of course, it's Goblin-men who turn up in Bree to spy, it seems to be Orcs in command of all his battles against Rohan. You'd think he'd get less 'obviously evil' henchmen to do his work outside Orthanc. It might be the deficiency of the Dunlendings that's at fault here.

[Rhoderic]

Yes, but it doesn't mean they've created it. I rather think Saruman instructed them to use it, as they were his own troops. Makes sense he trusted them more than the Dunlendings allies.

I think this bit (alluded to several times before in this thread) from The Hobbit is critical:

Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.

It does sound like somewhere in the big mass of orcish culture there exists an understanding of explosives and the making of them. That said, I'd also agree that the explosives at the Hornburg were of Saruman's making, but at any rate, orcs seem to have a major affinity for explosives. They may not all know how to make the stuff, but they delight in it when they can get their hands on it, and I'd venture to guess they have an "instinct" for how to use it "correctly" (ie. the most destructive way possible), in much the way that their "creator" Morgoth had an essential instinct for heat/fire in its wild, forceful, primal, explosive, smoky sense.

[nicknorthstar]

Pauline Baynes. Like yourself, I grew up reading Narnia and she was the illustrator for them all. What I didn't put together was the fact she also illustrated the covers to my first copies of Lord of the Rings. So there was a subconscious link between the two set of books in the young Nick's mind. http://www.eq5.net/tolkien/tbkcovers.html There are Goblin type creatures creeping around the edges of those books.

Bowed Backs. A couple of people have mentioned this. I think the bowed back, bandy legs etc just made Orcs look even smaller. It's pretty clear they don't get bigger than men. Tolkien definitely calls huge Orcs 'Man sized', or even 'almost man high'.

[Hobgoblin]

Pauline Baynes. Like yourself, I grew up reading Narnia and she was the illustrator for them all. What I didn't put together was the fact she also illustrated the covers to my first copies of Lord of the Rings. So there was a subconscious link between the two set of books in the young Nick's mind. http://www.eq5.net/tolkien/tbkcovers.html There are Goblin type creatures creeping around the edges of those books.

Thanks for the link! I dimly remember a friend having a copy with beasties around the edge - probably this one - and being rather envious, as I had the set with Tolkien's eye drawing on all three volumes.

Is that an uruk in the left-hand margin here, perhaps?

Bowed Backs. A couple of people have mentioned this. I think the bowed back, bandy legs etc just made Orcs look even smaller. It's pretty clear they don't get bigger than men.

I agree. Another point to note is that the bowed backs and bent-over stances come when they run. So, Bilbo thinks the low tunnel is a bit low for big goblins, not knowing that they run crouched over. That suggests that when walking and standing around guarding the Great Goblin, etc., they don't have bowed backs. And we see this in action when Grishnakh runs.

I'd say that it's pretty clear that they don't get as big as Men! 

Tolkien definitely calls huge Orcs 'Man sized', or even 'almost man high'.

I think the quote here is "a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high". This chap, in Moria, seems to be the very biggest orc seen up close in the whole book. Now (disregarding the note somewhere in the corpus that there was a Middle Earth measurement of Man-high that meant 6'4" - because that's clearly not what's meant here unless we get into a bizarre re-scaling of every character in the book!), that suggests to me that the orc chief can't be much more than about 5'; any taller and he would be as tall as a short man (like many in Bree, say). And then there's the "half-orc differential: if "real" orcs can be as tall as Men, then why would characters distinguish the half-orcs by their height?

[Hammers]

No fantasy writer awakens a slumbering academic in readers like Tolkien.

[Rhoderic]

One of the fantastic and frustrating (in equal measures) parts of Christopher Tolkien's books of notes is we get an insight into the Profs thought processes, but they are usually contradictory. I found this especially true of the section on the origins of Orcs. You feel the Prof is arguing with himself. He knows Orcs came from Elves, but doesn't want to admit it...to himself   Anyway, one of his alternative theories goes like this:
Orcs are not bred from Elves. Some are undoubtedly caught and tormented. But the Orcs true are bred from Men. Men appear in Middle-Earth earlier than Elves thought. In the long captivity of Morgoth in the West, Sauron finds men first, captures them and starts to breed Orcs as an army ready for his masters return. Twisting lifeforms is a Sauron speciality, were-wolves are another of his creations, one of his titles is Lord of Were-wolves. So making Orcs is part of his own recipe book. Remember this was one of Tolkien's theories, not a Middle-earth fact.

The annoying thing is that even if this alternative theory were true, it would not solve the dilemma of orc fëar or souls. As it is not in the power of anyone but Eru to make souls (this being Morgoth's greatest envy in the Silmarillion), it would also seem likely (to me at least) that no one but Eru can interfere with the "natural law" that beings with souls beget beings with souls (elves, dwarves, men, possibly ents and great eagles), and beings without souls beget beings without souls (animals). And so... unless Eru somehow intervened out of pity for the broken, tortured things Morgoth and/or Sauron were breeding, how could orcs not have souls if they come from elves or men? Yet, Tolkien simply cannot have these devil-beings endowed with souls! That would be crazy!

Given some of the other alternative creation stories referenced by Hobgoblin earlier (that orcs were made from stone, or the "heats and slimes of the earth", or animals, and that they are "robotic" in their actions much like Aulë's dwarves were before Eru intervened and endowed them with souls*), I very much get the impression that the soul dilemma was a central part of Tolkien's indecision regarding the origin and nature of orcs. Those alternatives, convoluted though they are, might have spared him some headache by definitely having orcs be soulless (like animals), but then again, orcs do have human-like intelligence and the power of speech, and they hardly seem "robotic" in either of those aspects.

* Though I wonder: was the whole dwarf-soul thing perhaps an instance of Christopher Tolkien filling in gaps in the story? It doesn't really seem like Tolkien intended for Eru to intervene in the world after setting it in motion. I'd be very saddened by the notion of soulless dwarves, though.