Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Hobgoblin]

One of the fantastic and frustrating (in equal measures) parts of Christopher Tolkien's books of notes is we get an insight into the Profs thought processes, but they are usually contradictory. I found this especially true of the section on the origins of Orcs. You feel the Prof is arguing with himself. He knows Orcs came from Elves, but doesn't want to admit it...to himself   Anyway, one of his alternative theories goes like this:
Orcs are not bred from Elves. Some are undoubtedly caught and tormented. But the Orcs true are bred from Men. Men appear in Middle-Earth earlier than Elves thought. In the long captivity of Morgoth in the West, Sauron finds men first, captures them and starts to breed Orcs as an army ready for his masters return. Twisting lifeforms is a Sauron speciality, were-wolves are another of his creations, one of his titles is Lord of Were-wolves. So making Orcs is part of his own recipe book. Remember this was one of Tolkien's theories, not a Middle-earth fact.

Yes - isn't the real problem for him the theological question of what happens to Orcish souls? I think his Catholicism was at the root of the decades-long wrestling over Orcish origins.

Saruman. Strangely, Saruman seems to trust his Orcs over men. It's Uruks he sends out to intercept the Fellowship, they have the gunpowder at Helms Deep of course, it's Goblin-men who turn up in Bree to spy, it seems to be Orcs in command of all his battles against Rohan. You'd think he'd get less 'obviously evil' henchmen to do his work outside Orthanc. It might be the deficiency of the Dunlendings that's at fault here.

It could also be that the Dunlendings are less loyal. You can't fault Ugluk on his loyalty - or indeed on his competence: they very nearly get away (and it was Grishnakh who inadvertently helped the hobbits to escape). Also, the Dunlendings do surrender and submit to a Rohirric peace, whereas the half-orcs stay with Saruman to the end.

For the interception of the Fellowship, the Uruks are surely the obvious choice because they can move so fast, being "trained to move at great speeds for many miles".

There's a tantalising bit in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, in which a battalion of Uruks is called away from the battle and "It was not till later that they discovered whither the Uruks had gone". I've always wondered whether this implies that this was Ugluk's band, but the distances are too great - they'd have had to cover 200 miles or something. Still, it could be something that was to be reworked later and was left unresolved. Or were they Mauhur's band (which raises the question: how did Ugluk know about Mauhur's location?)? I don't claim any expertise on the geography and distances, but I'd love to know what's what here.

[Hobgoblin]

No fantasy writer awakens a slumbering academic in readers like Tolkien.

Ha! Too true!  

And there's always a vague sense of guilt, if you've read this essay by M John Harrison:

For instance, the moment you begin to ask (or rather to answer) questions like, “Yes, but what did Sauron look like?”; or, “Just how might an Orc regiment organise itself?”; the moment you concern yourself with the economic geography of pseudo-feudal societies, with the real way to use swords, with the politics of courts, you have diluted the poetic power of Tolkien’s images. You have brought them under control. You have tamed, colonised and put your own cultural mark on them."

[Blackwolf]

Ha! Glad you said it(re Tolkien's beliefs).
Orcs have intelligence>Orcs have souls,perhaps indicative of Elves fallen nature in extremis?Sorry for going all Thomist, in idipsum..

[Hobgoblin]

Ha! Glad you said it(re Tolkien's beliefs).
Orcs have intelligence>Orcs have souls,perhaps indicative of Elves fallen nature in extremis?Sorry for going all Thomist, in idipsum..

Isn't that why the whole "puppet playing recordings of speech" idea was entertained at one point? They're not really intelligent, they're just made to sound that way ...

[Blackwolf]

Indeed
In a philosophical light; if Tolkien was a Platonist,it could be suggested that since Orcs lack that necessary muse,or parts thereof,that they lack a complete soul.This is a somewhat neater explanation although not canon.

[Cubs]

Did Elves have souls? I thought the whole idea of their immortality was that they didn't have a soul, they simply returned to the earth if killed (unlike Men, which is why they envied them their immortal souls).

[Rhoderic]

Did Elves have souls? I thought the whole idea of their immortality was that they didn't have a soul, they simply returned to the earth if killed (unlike Men, which is why they envied them their immortal souls).

Elves have souls, but after death they will reside in the halls of the dead under the care of Mandos until the end of the world, and only then do they get to join Eru Ilúvatar. Men simply pass through the halls of the dead and join Eru Ilúvatar immediately. That is why elves envy men.

The bit about souls returning to the earth (and simply ceasing to exist as distinct souls) is pertaining to the elf belief of what happens to dwarves upon death (because Eru Ilúvatar did not intend for such things as dwarves to exist in the first place - Aulë made them out of a sheer desire to create and out of an impatience to live among such "children" as the elves and men Eru Ilúvatar had "previewed" to the Ainur - then, Eru Ilúvatar stepped in to give the dwarves souls out of love/sympathy/whatever). Dwarves themselves believe otherwise - that their souls too are immortal and there is a separate hall of the dead for them. We as readers don't know which, if either, of these theories is true. They are simply presented to the reader as two conflicting beliefs.

[Blackwolf]

Isn't that why the whole "puppet playing recordings of speech" idea was entertained at one point? They're not really intelligent, they're just made to sound that way ...

If (as said in the Silmarillion) Orcs were the result of Melkor's/Morgoth's corruption of Elves(and not by their own hand), it would lead one to think that Orcs could be 'saved',this is where Tolkien had so much trouble reconciling their existence and creation and to their eventual end.

So therefore the idea that they were imbued with some of Morgoth's will,and in essence automata is a much neater idea,they were Morgoth and reflected his will.

[Rhoderic]

If (as said in the Silmarillion) Orcs were the result of Melkor's/Morgoth's corruption of Elves(and not by their own hand), it would lead one to think that Orcs could be 'saved',this is where Tolkien had so much trouble reconciling their existence and creation and to where they would go...

Plus, there's the question: Are there, like, millions upon millions of orc souls, which are technically elf souls, residing in the halls of the dead, just accumulating like crazy?

Mandos does speak occasionally among the other Ainur (and elves?) in the Quenta Silmarillion. You'd think he would have said something about it

[Blackwolf]

Edited above

[Legion1963]

Indeed. And they are not green ;-)

[nicknorthstar]

Tolkien does talk a lot about Orc Souls, and comes to no conclusion. It does seem he went with the 'Orcs come from men' conclusion in the end.

The Silmarillion was put together by Christopher from his Fathers papers, his subsequent books on the History of Middle-earth are him delving deeper into other papers. The other papers are mostly the earlier versions of the Legendarium, but some are the Prof revisiting his ideas like the Orcs. The Orc notes I'm refering to come from around 1956. The question of Orc Souls (I'm not 100% on this without re-reading, sorry) was that as creatures become more corrupt & evil, they 'lose privileges', so Orcs, even Elf-Bred Orcs, won't be going to the halls of Mandos. An example of this is I think is the death of Saruman, his fallen spirit reaches out to the West, but is dispersed by a west wind (symbolising rejection from his privileges in death).

Just as an aside, the book 'Peoples of Middle-Earth' contains Tolkien's only post LotR story, it's short, & it's about the youth of Minas Tirith forming 'Orc Cults' and committing dark deeds.

[Rhoderic]

Wargamify this, Games Workshop!

[Cubs]

Elves have souls, but after death they will reside in the halls of the dead under the care of Mandos until the end of the world, and only then do they get to join Eru Ilúvatar. Men simply pass through the halls of the dead and join Eru Ilúvatar immediately. That is why elves envy men.

Jebus, I am seriously outgunned in this conversation!

[Rhoderic]

Jebus, I am seriously outgunned in this conversation!

Actually so am I. "Only" ever read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion (and the lattermost I only read for the first time less than a year ago). I didn't know 75% of the other texts referenced in this thread even existed. Definitely didn't know Tolkien had actually treated the orc souls dilemma in surviving writings - I just thought that was a big black hole in the cosmology of the legendarium. My reserves of knowledge (I use that word hesitantly) are pretty much exhausted by this point, but I hope the discussion won't die yet.

*Prods Hobgoblin and Nick with an orcish spear.*