Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Hawkeye]

An orcish spear should do it Rhoderic - they're designed for functionality, not looks, so you know they're going to do their job!

[Hobgoblin]

Just re-reading The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (prompted by Sunjester's comments on the orc bow thread). There's some interesting stuff therein that's pertinent to this discussion:

"If the keen-eyed Orcs marked their flight they took no heed. They halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shot they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dunedin, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Numenorean armour. The great Men towered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs."

[Tolkien puts commas in very odd places by contemporary standards.]

Now, these are Second Age Orcs of the mountains, not Uruks, of course. And the Numenoreans are exceptionally tall Men (Isildur is somewhere said to be 7' tall, though whether that was contemporary with this I have no idea). But it's interesting that in the Third Age, Saruman's Orcs have considerable difficulty with a Rohirric shieldwall at the Isen (they're withdrawn and replaced with Dunlendings for that reason). There's a consistent theme that Orcs of whatever stripe are too short to fare well against a Mannish shieldwall.

That reinforces the view that all Orcs are shorter than Men - and that the size difference between smaller and larger Orcs may not be that great in any case.

A second interesting thing is this:

"The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dur, sent out long before to watch the passes ..." [A lengthy note makes plain that these were Orcs of the Red Eye.]

The passage echoes the note from Appendix B of LotR:

"Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures." [Hence the "black Uruks of Mordor" in Moria ...]

Returning to the Gladden Fields text, we get a couple of further mentions of large Orcs:

"Men were falling for some of the greater Orcs leaped up, two at a time, and dead of alive with their weight bore down a Dunedan, so that other strong claws could drag him out and slay him. The Orcs might pay five to one in this exchange, but it was too cheap." [The note on the "grim servants" suggests that the Mordor Orcs were driven into a sort of frenzy by the presence of the ring.]

"... for there were certain Woodmen who got news to Thranduil by runners, and also themselves gathered a force to ambush the Orcs - of which they got wind, and scattered, for though victorious their losses and been great, and almost all of the great Orcs had fallen: they attempted no such attack again for long years after."

What all this suggests to me is that Uruks appear to be a cyclical phenomenon. When read in conjunction with the Morgoth's Ring note, the Gladden Fields text suggests that when Sauron was in power, he produced bigger, stronger Orcs than those living "wild" - just as Morgoth had done before him. These great Orcs of the First and Second Age may not have been called Uruks (but who knows?) but they seem to have been pretty much the same thing.

[Hobgoblin]

My reserves of knowledge (I use that word hesitantly) are pretty much exhausted by this point, but I hope the discussion won't die yet.

*Prods Hobgoblin and Nick with an orcish spear.*

"[Orcs] do not tire."

[Arthadan]

We have another source for powerful Orcs in the First Age, the already mentioned "Boldogs" (although I'm not sure if it was Tolkien's final view on the matter):

In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and
more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

Also Elves, unlike Men, can refuse the Summon of Mandos (which is a sign of their corruption) when they die and stay in Middle-earth unseen, hating the living and wanting to posses a body (and trying to communicate with them is dangerous and against the law of Eru). If you assume Orcs are Elves in origin, they could have a similar fate but since the power of their fëar is greatly dimished (compared to Elves), they could not interact with the living at all.

Coming back to Orc diversity, Personally I chose pragmatic approach taking all the four origins as "pure/original" Orc races which have mixed in different proportions over the years.

- One would be simian-like, stronger and less cunning with greish skin.
- Other would be the "standard" made out of Elves, looking like ugly Mongols with swarthy skin.
- Mannish one would somewhere in the middle, stockier than the Elf-related one and less bowed than the simian one. this one would have dark brown skin.
- The Maiar blooded would be the most perfect, strongest and most cunning and wickd. Kings and maybe some priest of Sauron's Dark Religion tapping into Sorcery. I'd give these black skin.

And then any mix of the above you can think of

[nicknorthstar]

Hi Cubs and Rhoderic
I don't to come across as 'look how much I know', I'm too modest for that. It's just been a lifelong obsession.

I'm loath to refer to a lot of Christopher T's books, as they are mostly works his father didn't make public. But the reference to the Orcs in Morgoths Ring, I think that bit is relevant.

The books are mostly impenetrable, so I wouldn't recommend them 

The one I'd recommend heartly is Unfinished Tales. That's easier to read than the Silmarillion, though some of the stories in it are 1st Age so you need to be aware of them to read those, but The Fords of Isen chapter is great, as is the Dwarfs perspective of An Unexpected Party.

Uruks. I knew I'd read something about Uruks, and it's in LotR appendix F ,
'Orcs and the Black Speech'
Orch is Orc in Sindarin. Related no doubt was the word Uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-Hai, snaga 'slave'.

Apologies if this has already appeared in the thread, by 9 pages I'm getting lost.

My idea of an Orc Army pre-War of the Ring wouldn't include Uruks. It's be orcs of various sizes, but each regiment led by one individual markedly bigger than the rest. I probably would have guard units of bigger orcs (Bolg has one at the battle of Five Armies), but wouldn't call them Uruks.

What I'd do for Uruks in the 3rd Age is make them bigger orcs, but uniformed. As though they had been kitted especially. It's easy for Isengard Uruks, the Fellowship describe their kit well enough for us. Mordor Uruks would take some design work. If you go for a chaotic look in dress and armour for standard orcs, including the bigger guard units, it's easy to give the Uruks the same Helmets, armour, shield to make them stand out.

[Rhoderic]

What I will do for Uruks in the 3rd Age when I commission a new range is make them bigger orcs, but uniformed. As though they had been kitted especially. It's easy for Isengard Uruks, the Fellowship describe their kit well enough for us. Mordor Uruks will take some design work. When I'll go for a chaotic look in dress and armour for standard orcs, including the bigger guard units, it's easy to give the Uruks the same Helmets, armour, shield to make them stand out.

FTFY

[nicknorthstar]

 

I need this Frostgrave malarky to quieten down first.

Then again,

Tolkien-esque Orc warband for Frostgrave.....

[Hobgoblin]

I'm loath to refer to a lot of Christopher T's books, as they are mostly works his father didn't make public.

I think this is a really, really important point. And I'd include the published Silmarillion in that. As CT himself acknowledges, it's just one version (or a patchwork) of stories that often themselves have several versions and variants.

The orc origin story is a good example here. As we've discussed, the "corrupted elves" theory is not necessarily Tolkien's final view on the matter (and it's even presented as merely a theory in that version of the text). It's become "fannish gospel" - but it's not necessarily reliable.

On that note, an unwarranted "fannish" assumption is that trolls were made from Ents. Treebeard says something like "Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves". Now, "in mockery" obviously means "in imitation of" or "in derisory imitation of". But it doesn't mean "from"! People come to that conclusion, it seems, by reading the Silmarillion, taking its account of Orc origins as gospel and then fitting the LotR text into that framework, even though LotR doesn't affirm that origin story.

All that said (and as you said!), there's stuff that in UT, etc., which seems to read well as an accompaniment to LotR and appears to have been very much in line with it. I think the later stuff (UT, Morgoth's Ring) seems to be much more reliable than the earlier stuff (where some concepts have clearly changed radically by the time of the published books).

The one I'd recommend heartly is Unfinished Tales. That's easier to read than the Silmarillion, though some of the stories in it are 1st Age so you need to be aware of them to read those, but The Fords of Isen chapter is great, as is the Dwarfs perspective of An Unexpected Party.

Hear, hear!

Uruks. I knew I'd read something about Uruks, and it's in LotR appendix F ,
'Orcs and the Black Speech'
Orch is Orc in Sindarin. Related no doubt was the word Uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-Hai, snaga 'slave'.

Apologies if this has already appeared in the thread, by 9 pages I'm getting lost.

I think we've had various "micro-quotes" - the "great soldier-orcs ..." snippet - but nothing more, so it's good to get the whole thing in here. It's one of the bits that suggests to me that Uruks and Uruk-hai are equivalent terms ("Uruk-hai" seems to be acting as a plural of Uruk and a synonym for "great soldier-orcs" here).

My idea of an Orc Army pre-War of the Ring wouldn't include Uruks. It's be orcs of various sizes, but each regiment led by one individual markedly bigger than the rest. I probably would have guard units of bigger orcs (Bolg has one at the battle of Five Armies), but wouldn't call them Uruks.

My only quibble with this is that I think there's a very strong case for Azog, Bolg and Bolg's guard being genuine bred-by-Sauron-in-the-Third-Age Uruks.

This is the chronology that points very strongly to this, I think:

2475 - the black uruks of Mordor, who have recently appeared, sweep across Ithilien and sack Osgiliath
c.2480 - "Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures." (Appendix B)
2790 - Thror slain by Azog in Moria
2799 - Azog killed by Dain
2941 - Bolg killed by Beorn

Add to that the persistentce of "black Uruks of Mordor in Moria" in 3019, and there is, I think, a very strong indication that Azog is the leader of "Sauron's creatures" in Moria. Bolg, his (remarkably long-lived) son, would then be an Uruk too - and, one would assume, his guard with him.

And one more point to go with it is that there were definitely "great uruks" in the Misty Mountains in 2995:

"At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected."

It's hard not to see those uruks as descendants of Sauron's "colonists" more than 500 years before (whatever Saruman had been doing to them in the interim).

[Blackwolf]

Such a cracking thread well done chaps!

[Hobgoblin]

I need this Frostgrave malarky to quieten down first.

Then again,

Tolkien-esque Orc warband for Frostgrave.....

A white wizard, perhaps? With a wizened apprentice with heavy-lidded eyes? "Squat and broad" archers and men-at-arms (great bows of yew and short, broad-bladed swords; large round shields); a "knight" of the same sort; ill-favoured, squint-eyed thugs with clubs; and ferocious, mail-clad templars (or barbarians) armed with two-handed axes ...

It could all work very nicely!  

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

"I'm loath to refer to a lot of Christopher T's books, as they are mostly works his father didn't make public. But the reference to the Orcs in Morgoths Ring, I think that bit is relevant."

I would agree with this but also add that the mythology prior to LotR was his real passion and we might have seen a different version of LotR if he had completed his history of the First Age to his satisfaction.  Still, we have what we have.  As much as I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings, my passion is also the First Age.  The latter reads as mythology, the other more as "history".  I accept that the two will never completely agree with each other.  I look on the two works as one might the stories of Homer and the history of Classical Greece.  I think elves are quite different in the two works, although we know that the elves started to diminish in the Second and Third Ages. 

For me, orcs in the FA are smaller, more primitive, relying on numbers and savagery, while the later orcs are bigger, still savage, but have some technical savvy.  But none are green!

As far as the age of Bolg, if orcs truly were descended from corrupted elves they would quite probably be immortal as well. 

[Hammers]

Ha! Too true!  

And there's always a vague sense of guilt, if you've read this essay by M John Harrison:

For instance, the moment you begin to ask (or rather to answer) questions like, “Yes, but what did Sauron look like?”; or, “Just how might an Orc regiment organise itself?”; the moment you concern yourself with the economic geography of pseudo-feudal societies, with the real way to use swords, with the politics of courts, you have diluted the poetic power of Tolkien’s images. You have brought them under control. You have tamed, colonised and put your own cultural mark on them."

I have done just short of a thesis on ME dwarves some years ago. It finally ended me in asking myself "What the fuck am I doing here?" While Tolkien has an unprecedented thoroughness nearing completeness to his works, I have landed in thinking most of it was never meant to stick a pin in.

[Cubs]

Hi Cubs and Rhoderic
I don't [want] to come across as 'look how much I know', I'm too modest for that. It's just been a lifelong obsession.

Hell no, it's just a bit dazzling to see so much knowledge on the subject based on actual research instead of supposition.

[nicknorthstar]

Immortal Orcs. Tolkien does talk about immortal orcs in his notes. He basically said 'Naah'. It's part of what I mentioned earlier about reducing the 'privileges' for evil things, plus he wanted to move away from the idea of Elf bred Orcs. It's also in this section where he talks about the above quoted 'demon orcs', the Maiar who take Orc forms to lead the armies. He says this explains the orc captains who reappear in Morgoths armies, rather than being immortal because of Elf blood, they are immortal because they are Maiar. But he also includes them in the debasing, corruption theory, the longer these Maiar stay as Orcs, the weaker and mortal they become.

I agree, Azog & Bolg are more than likely Uruks, it all fits the timeline.

I was always interested in what Tolkien described as the older Orc tribes in the North of Middle-Earth. When I thought Orcs might be immortal, the idea stuck in my head of these ancient tribes might be ones who still remembered the First Age, Goblin Elronds if you like. 'Course it's not the case, but what about an idea that Azog and Bolg, and maybe the Great Goblin, are Maiars, who've lingered under the Misty Mountains for eternity in Orc form, leading these independant lesser tribes. The Balrog managed it!

'Sticking a pin in it'. I agree, Tolkien never expected Wargamers to be analysing his world like a historical period. But, he did it himself. He stressed over his history being perfect, there being no inconsistencies. Famously (in my mind), the only reference in all of his books that doesn't tie up is some Queen who kept cats. Another one I noticed was Gandalf calling the Balrog Flame of Udun. Udun is the area behind the gates of Mordor. Odd thought I. Later on I read Udun was also another name for Utumno

[Captain Blood]

I would say there's enough raw material and thinking on orcs, right here in this thread, for a Masters thesis in 'Tolkien Studies'!
Someone should apply


Nick, I'm seeng a 'Frostgrave' plastic box of True-to-Tolkien orcs in your future...