Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Arthadan]

That one is meant to be an uruk/big one.

I also like these from Bronze Age, maybe as Mordor uruks. Shame there is only one pack:



And speaking about oldies, we have the Denizen ones. Really tiny fellas:

[Hobgoblin]

The Bronze Age ones look good - and they look as if they'd mix well with Ral Partha.

There are few even older Denizen ones which are really, really tiny but very well sculpted. They're very different from those ones. I've got a couple underway - one even has an eye on his shield!

[Cubs]

There are some interesting thoughts on those topics here:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB4.html

The point at the end about the Moria orcs not siding with Grishnakh's troop is quite interesting.

All nice and chin-rubby stuff for the brain. So from that I would surmise that the Balrog was nicely comatose under the mountain until the Dwarves inadvertantly woke it. From then on, it is controlling the Moria forces (by virtue of being immensely powerful and cruel) and sometimes acting alongside Sauron's general plan (being a nasty pasty), but without really being a part of the plans as either a servant or an ally.

One thing does seem clear about goblins/orcs, and that is their weak will. They seem to be easily dominated by the will of powerful entities and need a strong leader, or they split into disorganised gangs of robbers and thugs.

[Rhoderic]

I still think the GW LotR orcs (Moria goblins, Uruk-hai and all the rest of it) falter quite badly in regard to the aesthetic of their equipment. Too jagged, angular and "industrial gothic". I know Tolkien meant for Isengard and Mordor to stand for the "evil of industry", but I simply cannot bring myself to believe he meant for them to look like that. It's just Hollywood overplaying every visual, as always.

Similarly, I can't help but feel that some of the weapons and (especially) shields on the Mithril figures look a tad odd. It's like the sculptor believed the figures wouldn't count as "fantasy" if they came with reqular round or square shields, so he had to come up with new shapes just for the devilment of it. That said, I think the Mithril orcs do get the "crude mail" thing quite right, and I must admit to the idiosyncrasy of being rather partial to those Angus McBride-style helmets.

I also like these from Bronze Age, maybe as Mordor uruks. Shame there is only one pack:

I like Bronze Age Miniatures, but I don't see those figures fitting the description of uruks (or any other Tolkien orcs) we've arrived at so far in this thread. Aren't they way too big? And aren't four of the five too upright-standing?

[Arthadan]

So far we know orcs stand low (bowed back) when they run. I t all comes down to what you consider "man-height". For me these are "almost man-height", so they would be big ones.

[Brummie]

Really enjoyed the first post but this discussion has become quite in depth for late comers!

I don't know much about Tolkien world, never having gone into quite the detail others have sought with Middle Earth, though I know its much bigger than is immediately in view.

However my general view of Orcs, at least in Tolkien's world, was effectively a need for an evil creature that is somewhat relatable to evil men, but appears in large quantities enough to be able to have battles with them or pose a military style threat (something that has hardly ever existed in fairy tale/fantasy prior to Tolkien). They are just generic evil cannon fodder and not much else; a bunch of generic mutants basically.

Personally I prefer the more majestic Barbarian style Orcs similar those in World of Warcraft.

As it stands for models, I thought the GW LOTR Orcs were actually pretty good.

However aside from them, I've found practically every other incarnation of 'Orcs' to be fairly meh with very few exceptions. Pre-Citadel Slotter, Citadel Slotter, Ral Partha and the current Games Workshop ones with huge immense teeth are all a bit naff I'm afraid. And because of all the variations I've come to a point where 'Orc' is really just a generic term for a malcoloured Humanoid that generally stands in opposition to Elves, Men, Dwarves etc.


In fact, what is the purpsoe of Orcs outside of Tolkiens Middle Earth? For a long time I felt a fantasy world without them was pretty empty, but its not like they can't be replaced by something else. In fact I'd say any generic humanoid that has a penchant for being a dick and can amass armies of themselves to be Orc in all but name.

[Rhoderic]

I t all comes down to what you consider "man-height". For me these are "almost man-height", so they would be big ones.

Do we know how big those figures are? I just know that David Soderquist (he of Bronze Age) generally likes to sculpt his male figures very big. I also suspect he was going for the non-Tolkien concept of orcs as big, strapping lads when he sculpted those - more of a "muscle fantasy" aesthetic than a "misty, mythic fantasy" one.

I don't know anything about those figures for sure, but I have my gut feeling about them.

[Skrapwelder]

All nice and chin-rubby stuff for the brain. So from that I would surmise that the Balrog was nicely comatose under the mountain until the Dwarves inadvertantly woke it. From then on, it is controlling the Moria forces (by virtue of being immensely powerful and cruel) and sometimes acting alongside Sauron's general plan (being a nasty pasty), but without really being a part of the plans as either a servant or an ally.

One thing does seem clear about goblins/orcs, and that is their weak will. They seem to be easily dominated by the will of powerful entities and need a strong leader, or they split into disorganised gangs of robbers and thugs.

My feeling on the Balrog has always been that he was roused by the presence of Gandalf and/or the One Ring.

[Vermis]

From then on, it is controlling the Moria forces (by virtue of being immensely powerful and cruel) and sometimes acting alongside Sauron's general plan (being a nasty pasty), but without really being a part of the plans as either a servant or an ally.

IIRC from Unfinished Tales, and Gandalf's version of the 'Unexpected Party' in The Hobbit: he was taking a holiday of sorts in the Shire, to clear his head about the problem of Smaug, when he all but stumbled across the idea of sending Thorin, Bilbo and co. The reason he was worrying about Smaug was that Sauron might soon send his power from Dol Guldur towards the Lonely Mountain, and have the most powerful remaining dragon in Middle-Earth under his control.

It suggests that Sauron might have had a better chance of controlling (or at least dealing with) Smaug than sending west towards Moria and the last balrog. Though it's not very clear-cut: nobody among the wise or the free peoples knew the power in Moria was a balrog, until it chased after the Fellowship of the Ring, while Smaug was a much more well-publicised and definable threat.
I have no idea what they might have suspected the 'shadow' was, beforehand, but very probably a lesser power than the thought-extinct balrogs, less dangerous than Smaug, and possibly already under Sauron's sway. Re: Sauron sending uruks to the Misty Mountains hundreds of years before. And maybe that's another reason why Sauron didn't give anyone any suspicions that he was reaching towards Moria - he'd already dealt with that situation, whether successfully or unsuccessfully.

That brings up another thing: those uruks - were they still loyal to Sauron, even acting as envoys between him and the balrog, or were they completely under the balrog's rule? (If the balrog had no affinity with Sauron) I'd guess no Bolgs or Azogs or almost-man-high chieftains were among the revenge-seeking northerners in Rohan?

[Cubs]

The 'what ifs' and permutations are dizzying!

[Vermis]

I know - I almost feel sorry for posting all that. I may have started thinking too much about it.
Who said it earlier? When you nail it down, it loses something. With the Balrog especially.

[Blackwolf]

 

I found as a lad that I had embellished whole chapters in the LOTR,and was surprised on re-reading them that certain events were much simpler,I had in effect filled in the gaps of the story telling.This of course should happen with all books one enjoys,and why we all see different things in the text; what's in our heads is very important,and the way we create our personnel visions.

[Hawkeye]

I think one of the reasons that Tolkien orcs grew in size over the years is the role-playing aspect. The problem with orcs as Tolkien describes them is that since they are small (by which we mean smaller than the average human), in a  hand-to-hand fight involving heavy armour and weapons in which strength (often equated with size) is what's (often) most important, orcs don't seem to offer a credible one-on-one threat to roleplaying adventurers. In fact, the point about Tolkien's orcs/goblins in the novels is that their threat has more to do with their numbers than with their individual ability. The problem with RPGs is that being outnumbered in melee combat is a major problem  (at least it was in Middle Earth Role Playing). It's one of the reasons why player characters love to gang up on villains. What's the solution? Outnumber the players less, but confront them with greater individual threats - in other words, bigger/stronger orcs. I guess a gamemaster could say - "Yes, it's true that they're not as tall as you [the player characters], but they are far stronger" but it's been my experience, as both a player and a gamemaster, that players don't much listen to things like this. I know this, because I teach for a living, and students are exactly the same. When I give them hell about it, I always have the odd sensation that I'm also berating my younger self.

[Ragnar]

Excellent OP and great discussion.

I am reading through the thread again.   

Oh, and I second, third, tenth or whatever a North Star range of 'Tolkien authentic' goblins.

[Dilettante Gamer]

Joining the chorus, chanting in my best sports fan voice:

 "Let's go Northstar, LET'S GO!" <clap, clap>