Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Steam Flunky]

Some of the English at Agincourt went pantless because of dysentery, so why not the less civilized orcs?

If you have ever partyed with the english on a saturday night or on holiday you might find some orcs who consider that "less civilised" statement as insulting 

[Daniel36]

I should've joined this forum years ago, it seems I am surrounded by like-minded individuals.

[Kiltedyaksman]

I am learned a great deal from this post. Thank you all.

[Conquistador]

Snip

Can you still buy those? They look terrific! And, by and large, very faithful to the books. I love the goblins of the White Hand in particular: note the long bows, badged helmets and short, straight swords.

It's interesting that the very old ranges of Tolkienesque miniatures - these, the Minifigs ones, early Ral Partha and Asgard - tend to be far less affected by the "distortions" I outlined in the first post. That's probably because those distortions largely arose as fantasy gaming really took off in the 80s.

Some of them because some of the molds are in the hands of classic miniatures.net but it's a case of loving the miniatures over producing them on a serious basis.  That "career/family conflicts with casting toys" problem. 

I know a guy in his 70s (young pup) with cases of unopened blisters of the old minis - like volumes of 3 ring binders inventorying the hoarded figures.  And now his eyes are going with Diabetes so his painting is essentially nil.  His house has more in original packaging miniatures than most large hobby stores...

[Dilettante Gamer]

Some of them because some of the molds are in the hands of classic miniatures.net but it's a case of loving the miniatures over producing them on a serious basis.  That "career/family conflicts with casting toys" problem. 

I know a guy in his 70s (young pup) with cases of unopened blisters of the old minis - like volumes of 3 ring binders inventorying the hoarded figures.  And now his eyes are going with Diabetes so his painting is essentially nil.  His house has more in original packaging miniatures than most large hobby stores...

Stay very, very close to that guy, my fellow Californio.

[MattW]

Given how interesting the discussion in this thread is, and that it apparently gave Nick from Northstar the (at least partial) inspiration for a fantasy range ( ), I thought I'd bump it.

How do we think the new goblins match up?

[Daniel36]

At first, I had wished the Northstar goblin be smaller, because I grew fond of the PJ LotR incarnation, but I don't want Oathmark to be the same thing necessarily, and this look is growing on me.

[westwaller]

Looks good apart from double headed axe, but gosh aren't Northstar/Osprey teasing this out? I've wanted to see and buy the Goblins since I heard about them!!

[Hobgoblin]

Looks good apart from double headed axe, but gosh aren't Northstar/Osprey teasing this out? I've wanted to see and buy the Goblins since I heard about them!!

I agree with that (I'll be cutting one blade into a spike or hook, I reckon). The goblins look great - just right for an uruk, I think. If a smaller set of "goblin scouts" or "goblin trackers" was produced at some point, the Tolkien bases would be covered.

One point from my original post: Orcs come in many sizes, but are best thought of as “big” (fighters = Uruks) and small (slaves = Snaga).

I was reading some of the History of Middle Earth recently and was struck by further evidence of this essentially binary distinction. In the early draft of Sam and Frodo's run-in with the column of small orcs, there's a description of "two of the large fierce uruks, the fighting-orcs". That's further evidence that Tolkien saw the armies of Mordor and Isengard as being made up, for the most part, of uruks, with smaller orcs in auxiliary or specialist roles. This especially true when you compare it with the tracker-orc's complaint that the war is going badly because "you fighters" are making such a mess of it. And of course it makes perfect sense: why would you spend centuries breeding big, fierce orcs and then not use them as the mainstay of your armies?

[Khadrin Stonetooth]

No need to argue about orc size I think. It just depends on the setting you choose. It can be Tolkienesque and then it could be Dndesque, it could be Wordl of warcraft or any setting you'd like. Being a DnD addict I chose my orcs height at 1.80 m and elves at 1.70 m roughly. Some will agree with me ans some will disagree. My figurines being at the 1/100th scale, it gives 18 mm for an orc and 17 mm for an elf and it kind of make sense in the way I envision my fantasy world.

[Cubs]

One point from my original post: Orcs come in many sizes, but are best thought of as “big” (fighters = Uruks) and small (slaves = Snaga).

I'm struggling with it to be honest. I'm trying to suppress that bit of me that wants to put things in neat classifications - small goblin, medium sized orc, big black orc. I know it's not Tolkein, but I've been acclimatised to GW definitions and it's a hard habit to break. I'm not even sure I want to break it!

[Captain Blood]

I'm struggling with it to be honest. I'm trying to suppress that bit of me that wants to put things in neat classifications - small goblin, medium sized orc, big black orc. I know it's not Tolkein, but I've been acclimatised to GW definitions and it's a hard habit to break. I'm not even sure I want to break it!

Luckily it's not compulsory

Given that Tolkien invented orcs, and everything that has followed is derived to some extent from his creation, I understand why some people like to go back to that original wellspring and create models in the image that Tolkien described. That's certainly very interesting to me in a way that the entire universe of 'Orks' and all the subsequent encrustation of invention that has attached itself to Tolkien's original idea - and bent it entirely out of shape - is not.
But then that's because I grew up with Tolkien in the 1970's and I'm part of that generation of wargamers who entered the hobby via the Airfix route, long before GW existed and D&D was just a twinkle in the eye of Gary Gygax. (Well, okay, it was starting up in the mid-70's, but hadn't achieved worldwide domination and spawned everything that followed... )

But everyone has a choice, of course. I guess the majority of today's wargamers under the age of 50, most of whom grew up with Warhammer as their primer, will no doubt be nonplussed as to why anyone would want to go back to basics in this way. Horses for courses, as usual

[Cubs]

Luckily it's not compulsory

I know, but my usual direction of choice is old school originals. I would still look to Tolkein for inspiration, but I think my aesthetics would lean closer to first/second generation Warhammer Orcs, with their jutting jaws and wiry physiques.

[MachinaMandala]

I'm not sure I completely agree with OP.

There's definitely an element of all the different types of orcs / goblins looking different (uruk-hai being "swart" over the Moria goblins being "green or pale skinned") and differing in size. Obviously it's not a complete and distinctive difference between them but there's definitely differences in the types of goblinoids in Middle-Earth.

[Hobgoblin]

I know, but my usual direction of choice is old school originals. I would still look to Tolkein for inspiration, but I think my aesthetics would lean closer to first/second generation Warhammer Orcs, with their jutting jaws and wiry physiques.

And there's no reason at all that you shouldn't! They'll have to pry my C15 Armoured Orcs from my cold dead fingers, for all that they're far too tall for Tolkien! I wouldn't use them for gaming Middle Earth, because they don't fit the descriptions in the books, but they're marvellous in their own right and see much more time on our gaming table than any other figures.

My sole point in this was to show that people who want to game in Middle Earth can find lots of interesting stuff in Tolkien's writings that differs wildly from the "gameified" popular perception - and flat out contradicts it. If you're writing or adapting rules for wargaming in Tolkien's world, it surely makes sense to use Tolkien's writings are your guide, rather than Gygax filtered through GW. But if you're not (or if you are, but you'd rather just use Middle Earth as a launchpad rather than a set of limits), then there's no reason to follow JRRT.

I actually have a long, inaugural and deeply pretentious blog post on the go, in which I compare perceptions of orcs with Borges' short story Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote. Borges' point is that we interpret texts, unwittingly, though the filter of our own times. So, when my son read LotR, he had preconceived ideas of what orcs were, whereas when I read it, the only reference point I had was The Hobbit. When I drew my orcs as a kid, they were dark ("swart" or "black" in the text); when he drew his first ones, they were "green". The arm of Games Workshop has grown long, as I'll say in the blog (iif I ever finish it)