(KICKSTARTER) tre manor plastic viking for WarBands of the Cold North- CANCELLED

[pancakeonions]

tre manor has put up new plastic figures for his upcoming game, WarBands of the Cold North.  He's funding them with kickstarter, and they're reasonably priced (about $3 each, a bit more with shipping).  The project is up through March 12.  So if you want to pimp out your copy of Blood Rage, want something nice to paint, or you just need some new Norse raiders, come check it out:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/warbands-of-the-cold-north-epic-viking-28mm-miniat

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

They look very nice, but some armoured options would be nice!

[TWD]

Isn't $3 quite expensive for a plastic historical miniature?
Perry and GB retail for 30-40 dollars for a box of 30-40, so these are three times that price..?
They're nice, but I'm not sure they're three times nicer than a Perry soldier.

[Annie]

Tre's sculpting is brilliant, I've backed.

They aren't really historical though, although people will probably use them for that, they are more fantasy historical. You can't really compare a small company (of literally one guy) dipping into plastics with an extremely well established companies prices. Plastics are exceedingly expensive to create (something I fantasise about doing one day but holy crap, having to put that much money down up front) and I'm actually really pleased to see he has put sensible pricing and no crazy stretch goals of "...if you back at this level, I give you my house for free!" which seems to be the downfall of many a Kickstarter.  So I'd rather pay a bit more to guarantee it's success than other Kickstarters where people jump in shouting "this is too good to be true!!" waving dollars about, and....it turns out too good to be true, the company goes bust, and everyone loses their money.

I think these sort of people need supporting, so I have 

[Cubs]

Redbox is very much a boutique affair and those who buy his stuff do so because it's just exquisite quality. The Perry's are great and I have no idea how they make such lovely plastic sets so cheaply, but Redbox is Redbox, and I see it as well worth the money.

[Cherno]

Economies of scale

[Vermis]

Oh go on then.

[TWD]

Tre's sculpting is brilliant, I've backed.

They aren't really historical though, although people will probably use them for that, they are more fantasy historical.

Fair enough, but this has been posted on a historical board. So some people (like me) will inevitably make that comparison....
Perhaps a better match would be the Frostgrave soldiers which is around the same price but for 20 models, so closer per model but these are still 33% more expensive (or is it 25% I can never get those percentage increases right ).

You can't really compare a small company (of literally one guy) dipping into plastics with an extremely well established companies prices. Plastics are exceedingly expensive to create (something I fantasise about doing one day but holy crap, having to put that much money down up front)

Why can't you compare?
I know that plastics are comparatively more expensive to create than metals, but that's almost entirely the fixed costs of cutting the steel tool.
Those costs are the same whether you are one man, two identical twins, or Warlord Games.
One company has an effective monopoly on supplying those tools and charges everyone for that service. The Perry's aren't making their own tools, they're buying from Renadra, just like RedBox, and Renadra will charge them all the same 50K (or whatever the sum is these days).
In fact one could argue that a small "boutique" manufacturer has fewer overheads than someone like Warlord with their studio and packers to support, so margins would be even greater...

And although the Perry's have been around for a lot longer than Tre they are to all intents and purposes exactly the same scale of manufacturer, with near identical (pardon the pun) overheads. Unless Renadra are providing "mates rates" (not impossible, but unlikely to be significant overall) or some sort of bulk discount (again, unlikely they're maxed out on capacity, so why would you need to discount when you could sell to someone else at full cost?) then the Perrys are paying out exactly the same money as Tre to bring their figures to market.
Which leads me back to my original - "are they three times better".

At the end of the day we all make those choices based on all manner of different factors. I'm not really
interested in fantasy Vikings, so I'm not really the target market, but if he's going to get back his investment he'll need to appeal to more than just people who already know and like his product and think "it's worth supporting".
Some of you clearly like his product enough to pay the asking price and I can see they're nice models and superior to either the Gripping Beast of Wargames Factory sets, my concern/surprise voiced in the original post was that the price was so far ahead of those sets.

I think these sort of people need supporting, so I have 

I'm glad you have and all of the above said, I wish him every success - they are jolly nice models.

Economies of scale

See above.
I'm not sure there are any significant economies of scale that are enjoyed by the Perrys over and above what RedBox will be getting. And even if there are any I don't think they're reflected in a tripling of cost per figure.

[Dawnbringer]

I think it's important to point out that these aren't going to be HIPS, but rather some form of spin cast resin/pvc.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Like all of his stuff, they are certainly shaping up to be some very nice models. On the pricy side for plastics, but not unreasonable given how nice they are, IMO.

I don't have any use for them, so can't really justify backing, but I hope they get made. I may well find a reason to get some down the line.

Given how many women he's sculpted for the rest of his range, I think it would have been nice to see at least some in this set, too, though.

Perhaps a better match would be the Frostgrave soldiers which is around the same price but for 20 models, so closer per model but these are still 33% more expensive (or is it 25% I can never get those percentage increases right ).

It's relative to which set is serving as the basis for the comparison. Although by my calculation these are $3/model, whereas the Frostgrave soldiers are $2/model, so that makes these 50% more expensive than Frostgrave soldiers, or Frostgrave soldiers are 33% cheaper than these.

[Annie]

Fair enough, but this has been posted on a historical board. So some people (like me) will inevitably make that comparison....

True, realised afterwards we weren't on the fantasy board!

Why can't you compare?

Because the Perrys in their established form, will have a pretty solid idea of how many they will sell to get their money back and go into profit, which, is shedloads. They have distributors and retailers all over the world, and from those alone will immediately sell shedloads. This means they can afford to put a lower price tag on them.

Red Box isn't a household name, and sells direct, and in the UK only through Hasslefree (not sure about other countries, I don't think he does), so his channels are much smaller. He doesn't have that guarantee of selling "X" amount, and if he doesn't, he's spent a hell load of money in the process. So therefore prices are increased as sales are smaller.

I find it all interesting because I have a KS in mind myself for something to launch in the next few months, and I'm looking at RRP for my figures, and then how to reduce it for KS, and looking at companies producing similar things (for HALF what my planned RRP was), and just not getting how they can price it so low, and it is pretty much the above.

Which is why I feel compelled to support these sort of companies as I think "that could easily be me", most of the larger named companies have started with money or reputation, so to come from nowhere, even with  a crazy amount of talent like Tre, it can be a real battle to "get up there", and then be able to offer the same prices and scale.

[Captain Blood]

Hmm. Firstly we have two threads (and so two separate conversations) running on this. I think they started about the same time, so that's a bit tricky 
(The other one is here: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=87686.0)

My observation on value vis-à-vis the Perry (or other) plastic kits, is more to do with what's included rather than absolute price per figure.

These quasi-Vikings are described on the kickstarter as 'semi modular' - which appears to mean not very modular at all. There are only 5 different figures / poses. The only modular element is the choice of 6 different heads or 6 different weapons. That's not very modular in today's rapidly expanding world of genuinely multipart and mostly interchangeable plastics. 5 figures with no opportunity to change the poses (because arms and shields are already attached) and just 6 head and 6 weapon variants.

The latest Perry HYW French set has 18 different bodies, 20 different heads and dozens of arm and weapon choices. Plus all sorts of additional bits and pieces. That is true multipart versatility and incredible value. (Perry, by the way, as well as being the best figures, have always been streets ahead of the plastic competition in offering the most choice in each kit).

Factor in the (comparatively) very high price per figure for the proposed RBG plastics, and the fact that it appears the new 'semi modular' Vikings are going to be made of PVC (like bendy old Airfix figures? Surely not?) I just can't see these as serious contenders for the plastic figure modelling market. Although I'm sure they'll be popular with fans of Red Box Games and the particular style favoured by the sculptor. And they are undeniably nicely sculpted miniatures. But we are really not comparing apples with apples in terms of comparison with other plastic figure sets. These are something quite different I think. 

[TWD]

Because the Perrys in their established form, will have a pretty solid idea of how many they will sell to get their money back and go into profit, which, is shedloads. They have distributors and retailers all over the world, and from those alone will immediately sell shedloads. This means they can afford to put a lower price tag on them.

But that was true for the Perry,GB, Conquest etc. when they bought out their first sets too, so why aren't their first products also much higher in cost?

I'm sure you don't mean this, but it sounds almost like you are expecting a customer to subsidise a manufacturer for not doing their job properly.
Why is his lack of a distributor my issue as a customer?
 I should pay 3x the price because you've not bothered to cut a deal with a distributor?

My point isn't that I mind paying more for a product, I don't. But what makes me pay more isn't the "back story" around the manufacturer - that's their problem. What makes my decision is quality.
I will happily pay 3x the price of a Wispa bar for some hand crafted artisan chocolate.
Not because the person selling it lives in a shed near Wakefield and hand makes it using locally sourced rhubab and is a really nice bloke who hasn't got a distributor.
I'll pay the price because it tastes better. It is 3x (or more) nicer.

People who know Tre or with a passing interest in wargames economics may pay a premium because of the reasons you outline.
The guy who Googles Plastic Vikings will get to see GB, RB and Wargames Factory. Then he'll make a value for money decision.
(Well actually first he'lll do a bit of sick in his mouth when he sees the WF plastic )

Red Box isn't a household name, and sells direct, and in the UK only through Hasslefree (not sure about other countries, I don't think he does), so his channels are much smaller. He doesn't have that guarantee of selling "X" amount, and if he doesn't, he's spent a hell load of money in the process. So therefore prices are increased as sales are smaller.

Again I think that's RBs problem, not mine as a customer. If as a manufacturer you want to pass those costs on to me, you need to give me something in return. In this case increased quality.

Which is why I feel compelled to support these sort of companies as I think "that could easily be me", most of the larger named companies have started with money or reputation, so to come from nowhere, even with  a crazy amount of talent like Tre, it can be a real battle to "get up there", and then be able to offer the same prices and scale.

They all earned that money or reputation though, and then risked (their own money and reputation) on plastic sets. They didn't pass that risk on to customers in the form of higher prices.

I'm conscious I'm derailing this conversation now. And I don't want it to turn into another Gnollgate, so I should let this drop.

[Vermis]

I'm sure you don't mean this, but it sounds almost like you are expecting a customer to subsidise a manufacturer for not doing their job properly.
Why is his lack of a distributor my issue as a customer?
 I should pay 3x the price because you've not bothered to cut a deal with a distributor?

Unfair. I won't pretend to know too much about the process myself, or the intricacies of Tre's situation and decisions, but then that's why we two shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I will happily pay 3x the price of a Wispa bar for some hand crafted artisan chocolate.
Not because the person selling it lives in a shed near Wakefield and hand makes it using locally sourced rhubab and is a really nice bloke who hasn't got a distributor.
I'll pay the price because it tastes better. It is 3x (or more) nicer.

People who know Tre or with a passing interest in wargames economics may pay a premium because of the reasons you outline.
The guy who Googles Plastic Vikings will get to see GB, RB and Wargames Factory. Then he'll make a value for money decision.

And people will look at the artisan chocolate and then go buy a Wispa.

I'm not entirely sure what the argument is, here. That Tre's sculpting is not worth much more than early WGF vikings? That not being the Perrys is no excuse?

But we are really not comparing apples with apples in terms of comparison with other plastic figure sets. These are something quite different I think.  

Yup. I've already mentioned that I think the bodies seem a bit samey, but aside from that I think all the talk of 'plastic' has kinda clouded the fact that this KS is for a 'warband' of fifteen, with casting results more like metal or resin than HIPS. I don't think these were ever really meant to be in direct comparison or competition with the big-army-building (regardless of whatever else they're used for) kits of the Perrys, GBP etc. More between those and the high-quality single characters that Tre usually produces.

$3 each - just over £2 at current rates. I've seen people reject that price for HIPS figures, but then again I've seen people consider it great value for HIPS figures too. Ditto for metal. Is there much different for this intermediate material?

[TWD]

Unfair. I won't pretend to know too much about the process myself, or the intricacies of Tre's situation and decisions, but then that's why we two shouldn't jump to conclusions.

OK, I know I said I was going to let this go, but I just want to clear up that I wasn't intending to be unfair to any individual.
I don't think I actually name-checked Tre and my intent was to make a general point. Apologies if it read like a dig at RB in particular.
It was a response to Annies suggestion that absence of a distribution network leads to increased prices.
So remove Tre's name and the question remains:
Why should a customer pay more because a manufacturer does not have a distributor, whether through choice, error, lack of motivation?
That's an issue for the manufacturer, not mine as a customer.