.45 Adventure Lite

[Operator5]

Over on The Speakeasy forum, a discussion is underway about creating a lite version of .45 Adventure. This would be a version without the wound tracking system as it is now, but with some semblance of it. I'd like to collect as many thoughts as possible, so if you play ANY of our games and want to chime in, head on over.

http://www.rattrapproductions.com/speakeasy/viewtopic.php?t=1536

The current lite version I have proposed would have a single stat line with effects based on the number of wounds a model has taken. This would allow for larger numbers of models to be used but should still retain the RPG type feel as well.

[Yggdrasil]

Hi,
First i want to say what i´m thinking about the "problem" (ehmmm hope you understand what i try to say because of my not so good english ).
I love .45 Adventure because of it´s RPG like Woundchart. Sure, sometimes i forget that a stat is changed because of a wound at that location but most time this do not happen.
But the point is: I think that the bookkeeping is simple because you cross of the box at the location. And the combatrules are simple too, as you have mentioned already. It couldn´t be easier than that and by the way it´s a super working system in my opinion
The real problem is, that many other "mass" produced wargames are using simple rules with only one statline for a character and Healthpoints say how many damage he can survive. This is good for really big battles (and i mean really big battles) But .45 Adventure is made for small,skirmishbased Battles between two Groups (and not armys!) and .45 is more realistic than other wargames. That´s what .45 stands for and what it should be!

The idea of a simple Woundchart isn´t wrong, but please, please do not change the current wound system in later versions of the core rules.
As already mentioned, this system is more real and not as fictive as other games. There are enough wargames with simple rules for bigger battles, the people who will play big battles should use other rules!

But what you can do is to "offer" an alternative rule system for a bit lager games in upcoming rulebooks/versions (for those who don´t get along with the current system).
For this alternative rulesystem you could use the easier woundchart.
But (i must say it again) please do not change the current system.

And by the way, if you are planing a second version of the core rule set. Do as less changes as possible. Making a new version doesn´t mean to make everything new, for myself it would be enough to print all the additional rules into the core book (exchange the special combat results from the core rules with the one from the gargoyle  and the demolition chart from amazing war storrys should be added to the core rules etc...)

[Operator5]

Wow. Very nicely put.

As I said to Eli in his initial post on The Speakeasy, the games as they are will not be for everyone.

I have no plans to change the core rules, but perhaps I will release a simplified mass version that will allow players to go from mass combat to a more RPG game.

As for a new version of the rules, anything I do would not change the rules just for the sake of changing them. Some things might be tweaked to come more in line with what has changed with Gloire, Fantastic Worlds, and Broadsword.

[The Hooded Claw]

It was never my intent to try and replace regular 45A. I love the system as well, but as I am invested in the game and do not feel like abandoning it, I thought I might try to tune the game a but to fit the desires of my regular gaming group.

The idea is to present an alternative way to play 45A. In fact, it would be great for Rich to develop and perhaps even publish a "Fast Play" set of rules for 45A that would make his game even more accessible to a wider range of gamers. Finding a way to translate any existing element of the 45A to the "Fast Play" version would be the key there, so that it would not require a complete reprint of all the existing published material.

Besides mass combat, I think there is merit there for the quick pick-up game, faster tournament style play or as system that might appeal to beginning gamers or gamers who are used to "thinner" systems than what 45A presents in it's parent form.

-Eli

[Hydra]

This is a very interesting development!  In many ways, I see a streamlined version being complimentary to the full .45 Adventures rules.  The original .45 Adventures rules (an its successors) are very innovative because of  its emphasis on narrative gaming with a small number of miniatures.  However, while some stories can be told with a few characters, some stories need a cast of hundreds (or a few squads of 10!)  These streamlined rules will help tell these epic stories.

I'm looking forward to playing them!

Matt Beauchamp
Hydra Miniatures

[The Hooded Claw]

Those are exactly my thoughts on how a 45A Lite fits with 45A. My initial reasons were very much my own, but this project seems to have grown a life of its own.

[Rhoderic]

The following is really more to do with BA than 45A, but I guess the principle is the same.

If I was to streamline the Rattrap rules (which I might actually do purely for my own benefit sometime), I think most of the changes would manifest as applying different, simpler rules to Grade 1s (the mooks), while keeping the rules for Grade 2s and 3s (the heroes) the same. For the Grade 1s I'd probably do away with wound locations and just give them two all-round wound boxes, with some extra stipulation that the first wound might kill the character based on some die roll (representing a lethal wound), say a 1-5 on a D10.

I'd also make the allocation of armour and weapons be a bit more "hazy" for Grade 1s, to get rid of some of those niggly WYSIWYG problems that you sometimes get when trying to stat up a figure that's wearing more equipment than a Grade 1 is allowed to buy. For instance, instead of buying a helmet, torso armour, leg armour etc. separately, you'd just be buying levels of armour "overall" for the figure. If a figure is only wearing a helmet, you could get away with having it count as no armour at all. A helmet and a breastplate could count as 1 level of armour, and so on.

My thinking is that fighting mooks often makes up a large part of the game. By simplifying the mooks, you'll have relieved enough of the strain that it doesn't matter if you keep the higher-level characters as complex as they are now.

[wolfgangbrooks]

Maybe you could do a simplification of the grade 1's if that's what you want. But .45a is already faster playing than most games.

The only thing I'd really want you to do is a revision of the .45a rulebook that includes most of the supplement rules and cleans up the layout and rules.

[ace67]

i for one think a system in the flavour of pulp but with the increase
of mooks and simplyfying of there stats, would be a .45 game i
would buy in a heartbeat
looking fward to seeing any developments
cheers
ace67

[Operator5]

Whatever I come up with, I will be sure to post it. But we have alot of projects on the burner right now so if you don't hear anything about it for a while, just have a little patience.

[Operator5]

I have just posted two sample wound charts in the Speakeasy topic.

One is very simple allowing for 4 wounds. The other is a little more complex, but I really like the simplicity of the solution.

[Yggdrasil]

One thing that i´ve done for some archetypes i made on my own (because sadly the Weapon options of the core archetypes doesn't fit with mad max styled Road Warriors ):

I set down the DR. So in the head, arm and leg section they only got a DR of 3 and only at the body they got a DR of 4 (because of battlevests etc).
This means that you can get them down faster (there are more weapons doing doubledamage on them.
SMG and Rifle at short range, and thats most time the "battlerange" because of the terrain you are using

[Doc Twilight]

The following is really more to do with BA than 45A, but I guess the principle is the same.

If I was to streamline the Rattrap rules (which I might actually do purely for my own benefit sometime), I think most of the changes would manifest as applying different, simpler rules to Grade 1s (the mooks), while keeping the rules for Grade 2s and 3s (the heroes) the same. For the Grade 1s I'd probably do away with wound locations and just give them two all-round wound boxes, with some extra stipulation that the first wound might kill the character based on some die roll (representing a lethal wound), say a 1-5 on a D10.

I'd also make the allocation of armour and weapons be a bit more "hazy" for Grade 1s, to get rid of some of those niggly WYSIWYG problems that you sometimes get when trying to stat up a figure that's wearing more equipment than a Grade 1 is allowed to buy. For instance, instead of buying a helmet, torso armour, leg armour etc. separately, you'd just be buying levels of armour "overall" for the figure. If a figure is only wearing a helmet, you could get away with having it count as no armour at all. A helmet and a breastplate could count as 1 level of armour, and so on.

My thinking is that fighting mooks often makes up a large part of the game. By simplifying the mooks, you'll have relieved enough of the strain that it doesn't matter if you keep the higher-level characters as complex as they are now.

I think you're onto something here, Rhoderic. Seems to me that it's a very simple way to handle the issue of larger battles, without sacrificing the charm of the game. Pulp adventures do occasionally feature hordes of minions against a single, stalwart hero, and it was always a real bear to handle before .45 came along and handled the situation nicely. I think that the boys at Rattrap have something real nice here, and a solution like yours does the job.

One of the supplements, the WW2 supplement I'm thinking (but don't hold me to this, maybe it's the Dragon Bones supplement?) has a suggestion for using wound tokens along the same lines.

[Grimm]

ok Guys I diden´t think that 45 A. need a mass conbat version or a lite version .
A lite version can be nice if you run a Game at a show to promoted the rules  but as a Game Master you can change the rules a bit for the show .

If I want to play a mass battle I use other rules and I can tell a story with two set of rules 
I my eyes 45 is more a RPG with Miniatures then a Tabeltop so I agree with Yggdrasil .

Anyway I sure Rich will do the right thing with the Rules 

[Operator5]

Anyway I sure Rich will do the right thing with the Rules 

Wow! Lots of faith in my ability to make a rational decision.

I'm going to repost the detailed sheet here.

You can see from the two listed, that the level of detail would not be lost with the second version. Stats still go down, etc. The one thing that is removed is Wound Location. But, that is added back in (sort of), by tweaking combat so that a Natural 10 on a d10 is a Head Shot and does 3x WS and a Natural 9 is a Torso shot and does 2x WS.

For players who want to play faster and bloodier, remove the wound boxes off each Condition level and make each Condition a single wound.

Again, I'm not going to change just to change, but this idea is worth exploring if it makes the game easier to play without sacrificing the detail.