Oil paints for 25mm fantasy models

[Arunman]

Hello everyone!

I collect traditional Citadel and Marauder models for use in such tolkienesque wargames as Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd edition and Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader and have painted them with British acrylic colours since the 1990s. That means paints like the hexagonal Citadel pots, Miniature Paints in glass bottles, Coat D'Arms, P3 and such. I'm able to wet blend with one brush to some degree, as it often works well, but sometimes not. Skinning of acrylic paint is rather irritating, even when using a wet palette, distilled watery paint, moist brush, quick blending and such.

I stumbled upon old White Dwarf articles about old paints, please see pages 50-52 here: https://www.projectaon.org/en/pdf/misc/JD-TabletopHeroes.pdf. Aly Morrison also mentions the use of oil paints for his 25mm fantasy wargaming model pieces in an old 'Eavy Metal article from the 1980s. To my eyes his painted models look splendid.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities of strong and vibrant colours, easy blending and a painterly technique where I just paint and blend the recesses and the highlights as if painting a two dimensional painting. I do not paint every evening, so it's okay for me if some models have to wait to dry for much longer times than with the acrylic paint. Most internet material I found on the use of oil paints is about painting horses or large scale figures - yet clearly at one time 25mm fantasy models were painted as well in oil colours. I note that the articles mentioned above were written in the 1980s and the oil colour technology has since advanced: many oil painters nowadays use alkyd oils that dry to touch-dry in about a day (instead of week) or water-soluble oil colours (like Cobra Pro). I would like ask the more experienced painters for guidance, before I head to art supply store to acquire expensive artist's quality colours:

• what is your experience of oil paints compared to acrylics
• should I buy normal artist quality oils, alkyds or water-soluble oil colours
• oil colour manufacturers often say give 30 days, or years, before varnishing, painters give it just a week - who's right
• what tips you can give and what I should avoid?

[Hobgoblin]

I can't be of much help on the main topic, but ..

I collect traditional Citadel and Marauder models for use in such tolkienesque wargames as Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd edition and Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader and have painted them with British acrylic colours since the 1990s. That means paints like the hexagonal Citadel pots, Miniature Paints in glass bottles, Coat D'Arms, P3 and such. I'm able to wet blend with one brush to some degree, as it often works well, but sometimes not. Skinning of acrylic paint is rather irritating, even when using a wet palette, distilled watery paint, moist brush, quick blending and such.

One thought: have you tried using acrylic medium, rather than water, to thin paints? The GW "Lahmian Medium" is pretty good - it allows you to thin paints right down while avoiding "wateriness". I hear tell that the Vallejo medium is also very good.

I stumbled upon old White Dwarf articles about old paints, please see pages 50-52 here: https://www.projectaon.org/en/pdf/misc/JD-TabletopHeroes.pdf. Aly Morrison also mentions the use of oil paints for his 25mm fantasy wargaming model pieces in an old 'Eavy Metal article from the 1980s. To my eyes his painted models look splendid.

Couldn't agree more. I think Aly Morrison and John Blanche are the two unsurpassed titans of miniature painting. Sure, there have been more "technical" painters, but I can't think of any that beat them in terms of sheer artistry and imagination. And I think - in general - that a 28mm miniature often looks better painted with artistry rather than technical precision. I wish there were more of Aly Morrison's miniatures online.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities of strong and vibrant colours, easy blending and a painterly technique where I just paint and blend the recesses and the highlights as if painting a two dimensional painting. I do not paint every evening, so it's okay for me if some models have to wait to dry for much longer times than with the acrylic paint. Most internet material I found on the use of oil paints is about painting horses or large scale figures - yet clearly at one time 25mm fantasy models were painted as well in oil colours. I note that the articles mentioned above were written in the 1980s and the oil colour technology has since advanced: many oil painters nowadays use alkyd oils that dry to touch-dry in about a day (instead of week) or water-soluble oil colours (like Cobra Pro). I would like ask the more experienced painters for guidance, before I head to art supply store to acquire expensive artist's quality colours:

• what is your experience of oil paints compared to acrylics
• should I buy normal artist quality oils, alkyds or water-soluble oil colours
• oil colour manufacturers often say give 30 days, or years, before varnishing, painters give it just a week - who's right
• what tips you can give and what I should avoid?

I can't help on any of that, but am intrigued and will be watching the thread with interest!

[zemjw]

Can't help either, sorry. Using oils for horses has proved beyond me, and my efforts to use them to weather vehicles have been less than impressive

You could try asking over at http://www.planetfigure.com/ It's mostly larger scale figures, but the questions you're asking seem fairly scale agnostic.

I am sometimes tempted to explore oils for 28mm, so I too am interested in what you find out.

[Arunman]

Thanks for the replies, Hobgoblin and zemjw.  This forum has a good old school vibe and I'm happy there are another persons interested in alternative techniques as well.

Thank you zemjw for the planetFigure tip, I'll take a look at it.

One thought: have you tried using acrylic medium, rather than water, to thin paints?

I have used a plenty of Liquitex's fluid Gloss Medium & Varnish. The idea came from Hand Cannon Online's excellent tutorial, as seen here http://handcannononline.com/blog/2011/05/11/tutorial-basics-this-plus-that-equals-additives-and-their-uses/. In addition to that one, I have used also Formula P3 Mixing Medium, both of which work okay. As for the Games Workshop and Vallejo products you mentioned, thanks for the tip as I haven't yet tried them myself.

And I think - in general - that a 28mm miniature often looks better painted with artistry rather than technical precision.

Have you seen John Blanche's Khorne Renegades from White Dwarf magazine's issues 150 and 202? Artistry is very strong on those ones.

In the meantime, I have acquired a Royal Talens Cobra Study water mixable oil colour set, along with the accompanying brushes, painting medium and a palette knife. I have also a primed Skrag The Slaughterer, which shall be the test piece. I own a good set of Winsor & Newton series 7 brushes and will try one to see if it works with water mixable oil colours or not. I'll report back to you in couple of days, Hobgoblin and zemjw.

[Norm]

For acrylic, both extender and flow improver will slow down drying times, allowing some blending. These products actually have acrylic polymer in them, so the pigment molecules are not over weakened as can be the case when water is used. You can use a spritzer with water in the spray mist on the subject to keep acrylics alive while you move them around, but it is not ideal and can be hit and miss.

If ever the saying 'you get what you pay for' is true, it applies to art materials. dearer stuff has more pigment and less filler / binder.

If using water based oils, it may be preferable to use their own flow improver rather than water to thin.

Many of the good results from oils come from thinned washes such as raw umber thinned with thinners (solvents for non-water based oils) - I have no idea whether water based oils can match the resulting lustre.

For painting, keep the paint thinly applied for faster drying times and note that different colours take different amounts of time to dry. It is an idea to keep an old CD to one side and  apply a stroke of colour to that, so you don't have to touch the figure to see if the oil has gone 'touch dry', you can test the same paint on the CD instead.

[Arunman]

Thank you Normsmith for the tips. When I bought the water mixable oil colours, the shop assistant gave me the same advice as you, that one ought to use ideally the painting medium instead of water for better flow. As a guide to painting I used Craig Whitaker's good guide: http://www.hfmodeling.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=410&page=1

In the attached picture you can see my progress so far.

Left above: the Citadel ogre model undercoated with white acrylic Coat d'Arms paint.
Left below: paints, water mixable oil colour painting medium and brushes.
Right: work in progress ogre, with metal colours, leather straps, facial details and base still left to do.

My experience so far:

• smell from the oil component and mixing medium is okay, a lot better than enamel or Tamiya acrylics
• the 50 € Cobra Study water mixable oil colours starter set large has a nice choice of colours and the creative mixing process is fun
• Winsor & Newton Series 7 brushes work okay and a flat tipped brush is a must for stippling
• one has to be careful so as not to support the model by touching, as the paint remains wet for the whole session unlike with the acrylics
• face painting was a wonderful experience, with easy blending of blue to make shadows and stubble, red to add character 
• for some reason, other colours tended not to cover well and when stippled as per the guide, the paint tended to get just removed 
• as it was a mixed experience, I'll have to experiment more to see if this really works for 25mm model pieces, as opposed to larger figurines
• I quit after ~5 hours, stored the still fully wet model piece inside a card box and will continue again tomorrow.

[Arunman]

In the interim, here are couple of good guides to painting faces. I found the links originally from the planetFigurine website, thanks to zemjw.

https://powellminipainting.blogspot.fi/p/painting-faces-step-by-step.html
http://www.planetfigure.com/threads/painting-a-face-in-artist-oils.79576/

I had also a look at the manufacturer's FAQ on the colours and noticed the following:

"100% retention of brush stroke/structure"
Stippling removes this, as long as it doesn't remove the paint. While stippling is perfectly doable with a 25mm scale ogre, to stipple a 25mm scale snotling's or halfling's face might be a rather hard thing to accomplish.

"Oil paint does not adhere well onto metal, plastics and other non-absorbent grounds."
Manufacturer suggests a multi-layered priming of two sanded primer layers finished with gesso. I used just a coat of normal acrylic paint, as seems to be the norm with figurine painters.

"An oil painting of normal thickness can be varnished after approximately one year."
This could be a problem, as all of my model pieces are for gaming use. Reading the internet, I get the impression most figurine painters wait only a week or so before varnishing, which sounds a lot better. Clearly, oil colour of any sort are not ideal for the quick just in time painting of gaming pieces for next day use.

Manufacturer's FAQ:
https://www.royaltalens.com/en-gb/information/frequently-asked-questions/water-mixable-oil-colours/

[Arunman]

After a break of 21 hours, I continued on painting of the ogre model piece. The paint was just as wet as before and likewise stippling of the black painted armour failed as day before. Not wishing to wait for longer, I simply painted over the armour with grey colour. Facial details like eyes, teeth and ear rings were painted on top of the previoys layers and - just as Normsmith had pointed out - I could swear the flesh colour underneath had dried faster than the black paint used on the armour. Base was painted dark green and then sort of wetbrushed to give yellowish green tint to the top. Stones were painted dark grey, with a Khorne symbol added for that special Old World feel. Base edges were left unpainted at this point, so that I would be able to move the otherwise wet model first onto a plastic tray and then inside a cardboard drying box.

In the photos the wet paint glistens, so there appears a lot of tiny white dots that are not visible to eye in normal lightning. As per Normsmith's recommendation, I'll keep aside a plastic tray with some of the paint on it for dryness checking. I'll check the wetness again in two days (Friday 23th day) and plan to try varnishing after a week (Tuesday 27th day). I'll use either normal acrylic varnish or a proper boat varnish as per the Blanchitsu approach. I think I'll cheat on the base edges and will paint them in suitable colour with acrylics when rest of the model is touch dry. I'll report again when the model is dry enough for varnishing and will give then my final judgement. Feel free to ask any questions or give suggestions in the meantime.

My premilinary thoughts are as follows:

• effort: while blending is effortless, otherwise it felt a bit hard and thus took a longer time than with acrylic paints
• cost: 10 paints 50€, brushes 10€, mixing medium 10€, for that 70€ one could get 20 Formula P3 acrylic paints

• difficulty: beginners should definitely begin with acrylic paints, with oils of any kind being more advanced option.

[Arunman]

After two and half days, the paint is still wet, with perhaps 10 % of drying compared to fresh paint. Paint is still non-touchable and I have now left the model on relatively warm and dry, albeit shadowy place. I can't arrange for the ideal warm and sunny place, or a drying box, so the paint will have to dry on it's own schedule from now on. Will check the wetness again next week.

Two articles on ways to tackle the slow drying speed:
http://www.hfmodeling.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=410&page=2
http://www.artpromotivate.com/2012/11/how-to-speed-up-oil-paint-drying-time.html

If anybody here wants to try oils themselves, I strongly suggest acquiring or DIY building a drying box as per the Craig Whitaker's advice - such a box will be useful to keep also the model secure from dust. I have had to do now with an improvised box taken from ordinary grocery store item.

[Connectamabob]

That drying box is exactly the same as a "putty oven" used to to speed-cure epoxy putty applications.

I've got one I "made" years back from a scrounged cardboard box and one of those cheap hardware store aluminum clip lights (scare quotes 'cause I didn't make anything: its literally just some box I put a lamp on top of). Works brilliantly for curing putty.



So just get yeself one of those lamps (and appropriate bulb), and scrounge/save an appropriate sized box from wherever, and you're gold. Some people line their boxes with foil, but I can testify that this is 100% unnecessary. Cardboard is a great insulator on it's own.

That wood one is nice, but it's way more work and money than is needed for the job (...said the guy who's making a spray booth out of 80/20 rail).

The one caveat for using one of these is that they aren't always safe for plastic or resin models. The heat inside can be enough to cause softening and drooping of the material. With plastics this can be dialed down by using a bigger box and a smaller bulb, but with resin it's scary unpredictable, as the resins used by different mini companies will have wildly different temperature tolerances. Metal and epoxy are safe, but both soak up and hold heat, so after shutting off the bulb you usually want to let them cool for ten minutes or so before handling.

[zemjw]

My own putty oven is simply a small hexagonal tin that once held shortbread, placed under a 40W bulb. Gets warm enough to speed up the curing, but never hot enough to melt/burn stuff.

Arty sites recommend using a different medium or painting in thin layers, rather than applying heat. However, you're using water based oils, so I'm not sure if that would help

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1260272
https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/89435/oil-paint-how-to-dry-faster-consider-this-thread-solved-lock-please

[Connectamabob]

If the lamp is simply above the box (or tin), like a desk lamp, say, so that the space is open, then that would keep heat comfortably low. Mine is a closed space (the lampshade acts as a lid), like the one pictured in the HFmodeling link.

Mine would work fine for plastics if the box were a bit deeper. As-is, plastics are fine if placed out near the corner, but if put nearer the middle, they'll soften and droop.

Resins are all over the place, and shouldn't be used in any sort of heat-generating situation without testing a bit of spare sprue or something first. I have some resin kits that would do perfectly fine in my putty oven, but also some that will droop over time in hot weather, or even go rubbery under the warm water tap during initial washing. It's all down to whatever the the kit manufacturer decided to use, and a lot of them unfortunately have "cheapest and/or closest" as their biggest or only concern when picking out a resin.

[Arunman]

Thank you zemjw and Connectamabob for the tips. I tried today the paint in both the model and the paint tray. It was still glistening as wet and when I scratched the paint in the paint palette, most of it was swept away as if it had been placed there just a moment ago. Some dark blue colour had formed a stiff film that was stuck to the paint tray, yet to my wonder the same paint surrounding it was just as wet as in the painting day. On the model most colours were wet or moist, but I note the skin colours looked distinctively flat and seemed at least partially touch dry.

I'll try to make Connectamabob's drying box tomorrow and will report back in couple of days (Thursday 29th day or Friday 30th day) if it hastens the drying of the water mixable oil colours.

Edit: this old Citadel model piece is cast in white metal and the wide base is made of plastic, so I don't think I'll need to worry much about melting.

[Arunman]

I built an improvised drying box with a simple wooden utility box from general store and a small desk top lamp. I had to put a traditional bulb into it, so as to generate the required heat. The day light bulb I normally use for painting does not create any heat. Now the model is mostly touch-dry!

I'll try varnishing later during this weekend and will then report back on how it went together with my opinion on suitability of water mixable oil colours for 25mm miniature model painting.

[Arunman]

After a night of heat treatment, the ogre model is seemingly touch-dry all over the model. Base was finished with green P3 paint and after waiting for one more day the model was varnished with Coat d'arms 140 Glossy Varnish. As brush laid down the varnish to the deepest recessess, it confirmed at the same time that the paint was truly dry and sticked to the model. I took a photo of the model, showing it next to smaller 25mm model piece painted in acrylic colours.

My thoughts on the water mixable oil colours

Easyness: blending is super, far more easier than with acrylic colours. When stippling works, it really removes the brush strokes and blends the colours perfectly. When it fails, paint just gets pushed around or removed and brush strokes remain visible. I have no clue why some paint sticks and some others slide, as they are same kind of paint from same manufacturer laid on the similar surface. With water mixable colours there is very little odour and what exists is much less than with enamels or Tamiya acrylics. Cleaning of the equipment was very easy with the water mixable oil colours, not really any different to the acrylic colours in that regard. Winsor & Newton Series 7 brushes work well.

Drying speed: varies as per colours used. Light skin colours dried fast, dark colours and greys were very slow to dry. Drying box is a must and can be succesfully self made with cheap household items, cutting the drying time down a lot. Palette stays wet practically forever, so it's kind of refreshing to never to have to worry about paint drying up.

Cost: About the same price as ordinary hobby acrylic colours, not much noticeable difference in price as one tube contains so much paint. As I have been collecting old Citadel models, the cost of paint in itself means hardly anything. That palette stays wet for a week saves money.

Conclusion: The fast drying speed of acrylic colours can be tackled succesfully with mediums for blending effects and one can be 100 % sure that paint sticks to the surface, unlike with oils. Oils are more a hassle, though not much. So in the end, I stay with the acrylic colours.