Mantic KOW - so called - "historical"

[YPU]

Looking at this from a different perspective: In PC games most people class the total war series as solidly historical, but that too has had units of gladiators on the field. (maybe to same amount of tut-tutting, I wouldn't know) Heck, maybe the unit containing the big C also hit a bit harder, which would be less obvious than a plain wargame stat line.  

[Freelancer]

Hey! The researchers for this game watched every episode of Xena;Warrior Princesss to learn the history of the Romans. Let them get back to working out what rule would best represent the effect of horns on those viking helmets!

[damianlz]

The big problem for me is that there isnt just a cultural change between early kingdom, early & late republic, early & late rome & the various byzantine stages - there was a very significant change in arms, armour, fighting styles, troop organisation etc. The equivalent for me is to have apache attack helicopters, counter insurgency squads and camouflage for any american cival war era rule set because 'close enough the culture had it'.  I think I will stick with impetus & saga

[robh]

I don't think that Mantic looked at it that deeply.  They are just continuing the "must imitate GW" policy that has been their entire raison d'etre.

GW published Historical armies for their battle system so Mantic must as well. They do not seem to have picked up on the fact that the GW offerings were actually very good.

[julesav]

I think that the key thing here is that the game is not really targetted at historical gamers - it's targetted at Fantasy gamers who want something a little bit historical or 'historical lite'. Rather like Bolt Action is really marketed at sci-fi (specifically 40k) gamers who want 'historical' armies?

I like the KoW system but I've never had the urge to buy a 'Fantasy' army for it. I have historical figures/armies so I may give this a try along the lines of 'if it gets figures on a table then it's good'.

I'm intrigued to know if the Roman list is 'especially bad' or if the other lists are similar? Anyway being an 'historical gamer' I'd adapt the 'official' list to suit the era of army I was fielding - isn't that what historical gaming is all about?

[Nevyen]

Reading the comments on Manitc's post on Facebook they freely admit they have taken some "licence" with history.  That as a starting point is a bit of a turn off........

[Ninefingers]

One thing that nobody has seemed to have picked up on is that this is clearly the "Elites" of the army list, who knows how many pages come after it containing Hastati, Marian Legions, and Limitanei etc?

[fred]

I think they have gone for a wide coverage of eras - which is good - but this necessarily makes each army / faction quite shallow.  Perhaps it would have been better to go for more precise eras, but this then makes it less accessible.

Its better to get people interested with a broad brush, then let them drill down more deeply.

Yes the Roman list is the elites and characters - the core units come from the list of general units, shown in the box out on the left hand page.

KoW is a good game, but it is very much at the game end of the game to simulation spectrum, and is pretty abstract.

I wouldn't get caught up on Crushing Strength, this is the KoW special rule name for 'better against armour in melee' it could represent pure strength or better weapons, or even more skill at picking weak spots in armour.

But even saying all the above, I'm not really sure this is on my shopping list either.

[Vermis]

Oh man. I consider myself more a fantasy player, and not hung up DBX-level nitty-gritty, and I think that Mantic list's weak.

it's targetted at Fantasy gamers who want something a little bit historical

Very little.

I dunno. I remember some fantasy game from a couple of years back that had a fantasy 'not-Romans' faction. Surely if fantasy players wanted units full of gladiators and warp-spasmed emperors careening over the battlefield, that'd be more to their tastes? 'Hollywood Romans' is one thing - and does the range of styles of historical games already out there preclude that? - but this looks like something else...

[Ddogwood]

I think a lot of folks are jumping to conclusions.

It's certainly possible that Mantic is producing a set of "Hollywood historical" lists with everything and the kitchen sink thrown in.

It's also possible (even likely) that Mantic is trying to include as many armies as possible, and decided to throw all of the distinct units that a Roman army might field under the heading of "Roman".  It makes sense to let players decide exactly what to include and exclude from their individual armies, especially in a game that is meant to allow players to smush historical and fantasy armies together if they want to.

Even gladiators make sense in this context, if we assume that they are trying to include the option to play Spartacus' slave revolt and so on (and if revolting slaves don't merit their own list, it makes sense to toss them under the "Roman" heading).

Caesar's "crushing strength" is a little silly, unless the game is supposed to be abstract enough that Julius Caesar actually represents Caesar and a small retinue of bodyguards and officers, in which case it might make sense to make him a little bit better than average.

Basically, flipping out about the game's inaccuracies is almost certainly premature.

[Richard in Sachsen]

Hmmm, I think I'm one the "if it gets people interested, then good" side of the debate. I think that is because of where I am located in Germany. Most players here are GW Warhammer, Infinity, Dust, Flames of War, Bolt Action, X-Wing Fighter, etc. players. All fine games and they seem to fit into some sort of genre but I'm not exactly sure which, "popular culture or 'pop' games," perhaps?

In my area, it is difficult to interest people in Impetus, Field of Glory or DBA. Some of that, but not all, may have to do with translated material and I am happy that Warlord translated Hail Caesar.

If I was in the UK like a lot of people here, on the other hand, I would lean towards "Hollywood History" side of the argument as it would be easier to find like-minded players and clubs.

So if KoW (which is also played a lot here) leads people to something like Hail Caesar (which is also kinda in the "pop-culture game" category but can lead to Impetus, etc.), then it works for me.

[guitarheroandy]

I enjoy KoW fantasy - it's a bit different from the usual stuff I play. I use a kingdoms of men army made up of Arthurian models plus a large mammoth and a chap on a winged beast and it's all jolly fun.

I'd be interested to try the historical version just to see how it plays out. I suspect that it might be a bit like WAB used to be in that the army lists do allow you to be very historical if you so desire, but also leave much room for 'beardy' play...an aspect of early WAB and post-supplement army lists (Armies of Antiquity 2) that I did not enjoy... Hopefully that isn't the case. The 'fantasy' terminology isn't helping their cause - 'crushing strength' is simply a mechanism for being more effective against armoured foes, for example, but because of the name, we imagine Conan in Roman armour!!!

I think it should be given a chance...

[YPU]

The 'fantasy' terminology isn't helping their cause - 'crushing strength' is simply a mechanism for being more effective against armoured foes, for example, but because of the name, we imagine Conan in Roman armour!!!

Not even particularly armoured foes. KOW has pretty much 3 combat stats. The number of attacks you have, what you need to roll to hit (both static numbers in the units profile) and what you need to wound, that last one is the "defence" stat of the opponent. Crushing strength makes you more likely to "wound" the target. Since there are thus pretty much two relevant stats in combat you will find that rules like crushing strength get used for everything from accurate weapons to venom to, indeed, strength. (all orks have it I think)

I completely agree with you that the name of this special rule doesn't do the historical setting any favours.  In fact even in the fantasy game there are a number of examples where it doesn't really fit in with what it represents.

[Tim Haslam]

Humm, all this negative talk sounds a little snobby (if there is such a word?  )

I'm glad others have mentioned WAB, and I can see why Mantic have gone down this route.
But let's just stop and think about the impact Warhammer Historical had on the 'ancient gaming scene' in its heyday.... Whilst some people didn't enjoy the system, all should agree that 25/28mm figure manufactures thrived on the interest it created. This in turn meant the creation of new ranges and Warlord Games AND plastic ancient sets and and and...
You get my drift, we all benifit!

If Mantic have a small percentage of success that Warhammer Historical had in terms of sales and new players, then it's a good thing.

Now the history side, yes ok room for abuse perhaps in the basic lists?
But give the guys a chance fellas!
I love my history and we all have a point at which un-historical stuff starts to grate. I 'prefer' to play within a strict period, and years ago organised specific period events myself.
Let's not all get snotty and look down on these new rules as only for spotty yoofs who don't really now anything about history. Instead let's welcome new recruits and guide in the right direction.
Then we can all go back to playing with dusty old 15mm models over a flat table with bits of card for hills, using mind numbingly boring yawn rules!
 (That last sentence was a JOKE by the way )

[Nevyen]

Very well put tim !

I have got a commitment from my lot of crazies to give the rules a go, and a rule system designed from the ground up as a game should provide a night or two of entertainment. 

I think for me its that WAB actually set a pretty high standard in the quality of the supplements and approach to history so then looking at a catch all roman list to cover such a long period of time means they will be judged to a extent by the preceeding set of rules.  I still hunt on eBay for the WAB supplements because i think they are great sources of inspiration and reading. 

So  it will be interesting to see how it all plays out over the coming month for sure.