Mantic KOW - so called - "historical"

[beefcake]

Um... so has it got rules for Maximus Decimus Meridius? 
My knowledge of Ancient warfare is next to none but this holds no interest for me either way.

[Ddogwood]

Um... so has it got rules for Maximus Decimus Meridius? 
My knowledge of Ancient warfare is next to none but this holds no interest for me either way.

We can make jokes about how often people believe that Hollywood films are historically accurate, but it's important to remember that many of our most reliable sources in ancient military history might not be any more accurate. We know shockingly little about what ancient warfare was really like, and sources for some of the most important figures are often more like propaganda than history. Even basic things, like how Roman Maniples actually worked, are lost to us.

That said, we know that the Roman army underwent major reformations a number of times, and units that existed hundreds of years apart obviously wouldn't have fought side by side. That's why I'm hoping that the sample provided is supposed to be "here are the units you need to represent the Roman army of your choice using the general list", and not "field a bunch of these and you'll have your historically accurate Roman army!"

[Richard in Sachsen]

They are just continuing the "must imitate GW" policy that has been their entire raison d'etre.

I think this is quite good and one reason I like Mantic as a company. There is something about the company that is quite proletarian, in a good sort of way. GW figures are just too friggin expensive, especially for what you get. I have some very nice Tom Meier high elves that I will use for Tolkien First Age Noldor but he doesn't make any cavalry for them and I need a lot of cavalry. When The Hobbit elven cavalry came out, I thought "Great! Nice models in my style!"

But there is absolutely no way that I am going to shell out 40+ bucks for six plastic cavalry figures, no way! Nice historical figures are getting pricy as well, and I am glad that I have most of my major armies collected (painted? well, that's another story.)

I'm not personally fond of Mantic's sculpts, but I think it is a great value for the money and a great way to field armies, play games and have fun at cost. GW has too much price-gouging as part of their business plan. I mean, 400+ GBP for Smaug?

[Tiny Rick]

There's a young man at the game club who plays with an Elf army, and it interested in collecting and gaming Alexander.  If this gets him to do it, why complain?  He may end up moving into historical gaming as a result...

[fastolfrus]

Why all the fuss?
Caesar may or may not have been strong.
But let's face it, in any kind of realistic portrayal of ancient warfare he would be unlikely to charge into combat single handed.
Generals should mainly be there for command and control, once they enter combat the game should almost run on autopilot.
It's fine leading that decisive charge or last ditch effort, but it should be an all-or-nothing sort of moment.

It strikes me that this is not really much different to eg Bolt Action allowing Major Frost to lead 24 para figures against Pegasus Bridge. Or games featuring Rommel, Montgomery, Michael Wittman etc or Bolt Action games with tanks at point blank range whizzing about like bumper-cars.

For that matter, how many Napoleonic players either field Napoleon, Ney and the Old Guard at a brigade level (or company level) action, often opposed by the 95th Rifles and the Scots Greys, probably with a rocket battery from the RHA for support.

As several have said, for a lot of (new) players they won't know anything - a lot of players have very limited historical (or geographical) knowledge before they start playing. But if they like it, they soon start to learn.

[Aerendar Valandil]

In defence (although I'm not interested in Mantic's venture), you may notice that the units portrayed here are to be added to an army built from generic options, the so-called "Master list". Hence you're able to – more or less – accurately create, for example, a Roman army of 69AD by supplementing a core force of "spearmen", "heavy warriors" etc. with a contingent of "gladiators" as allegedly deployed by Emperor Otho.
OTT abilities for 'special chars' were also well established in Warhammer Ancients Battles.

This.

[georgec]

One of the problems of deriving historical games from fantasy rules is 'recalibrating' for 'normal' humans.  A fantasy hero, villain or monster should be able to slaughter single-handedly whole units.  There also need to be a comparative hierarchy of advantages; a minor hero need to be better than rank and file; a hero even better; a small demon stronger than a hero, a greater demon even stronger.....etc. 

In, say, the GW genre these individual marginal advantages 3 v 4  v 5 etc make a huge difference when you are fighting top v bottom, magnified if you are then making hit, wound and save roles.  If you transfer this to historical games - well WAB was great game, I still love it, but 'old hands' will remember the joys of the original Armies of Antiquities list with the Norman Dux, Viking Konnigur and 'goblin fanatic' bearserkers.  The game then becomes  how you employ, and counter, your crushing heroes and killer units.  But for a real example of the horrors of cumulative minor advantages, consider Nomad Light Cavalry....

Successor sets eg WAB2 and its lists and Rob Broom's excellent War and Conquest, have really tuned these differences down, but after 10-15 years of experience.  It might take Mantic a while to get their 'calibration' right...

[YPU]

Interesting points Georgec! The question also becomes if you want to "recalibrate" or if you want your ruleset to reflect the way we romanticise particular famous units. Not only Hollywood but also historical retellings.

[mellis1644]

We can make jokes about how often people believe that Hollywood films are historically accurate, but it's important to remember that many of our most reliable sources in ancient military history might not be any more accurate. We know shockingly little about what ancient warfare was really like, and sources for some of the most important figures are often more like propaganda than history. Even basic things, like how Roman Maniples actually worked, are lost to us.

That said, we know that the Roman army underwent major reformations a number of times, and units that existed hundreds of years apart obviously wouldn't have fought side by side. That's why I'm hoping that the sample provided is supposed to be "here are the units you need to represent the Roman army of your choice using the general list", and not "field a bunch of these and you'll have your historically accurate Roman army!"

Well said and there are way too many historical gamers who seem to think army lists of the various favorite rules set are definitive guides to ancient forces. Most lists are at best opinions and estimates to provide a decent game. At worse they are based off gamer law and a few hours of second hand research. The lists help create balanced 'pick up' games for an evening and especially tournaments, which is great and what we as gamers want. See what happened when Hail Caesar did not have lists...But those tourney style games in impetus, DBx, FoG and all the other rules out there are IMO about as close to history as what many people here seem to be complaining about in the Mantic lists.

P.S. I play those games myself but don't get carried away by any impression of them being a simulation.

Now I agree Mantic's lists are not accurate but if it gets people down playing games and then starting to really dig into what is history is really about then all the better IMO. After that  they might start to get more knowable about the historical forces and make their own calls.

Of course most of us don't have time to do all the research we want so lists are a help - but lets not make more of them than they are. I hope Mantic provided rules for creating your on forces/units. That would be much more helpful IMO.

[nikephorous]

Hi,

Like so many people here, I have mixed feelings about the idea.

KoW is a well designed and tight fantasy game that can be played quickly. It is perfect for the Playstation Generation.

Warhammer - both Fantasy and Historical - was a more "old school" game. It went into more depth and took longer to play.

I firmly believe that KoWH will bring many of the old WAB armies back out of their cupboards - and that is a good thing.

Are they "historically accurate?" I don't know - I wasn't there..... 

But please - lets not all lose our cool over the lists. All army lists are fantasies. Some are reasonable indications about what was available to a commander - and some are just way wrong.

DBM(M) is a good example of a serious and adult (cough) game that is also wrong on so many levels. It is however, very popular and gives those who like to be tested during a game a good experience.

Haters are always gonna hate. Find good people and play fun games with them. In my experience KoW is a fun game. KoWH will be as much fun as you let it be.

John

[jetengine]

Have too agree with some of the comments here, theres a bit of the 'Grognard complaining about the rivets' going on which alas is more common from historical gamers. Sure its not 100% accurate but nothing is.

[Ninefingers]

DBM(M) is a good example of a serious and adult (cough) game that is also wrong on so many levels. It is however, very popular and gives those who like to be tested during a game a good experience.

It tested my patience as you scrabble to get pips to move your army three foot across the table in two inch increments, so that you could get within the two inch (sorry, 100 paces) bow range...

[eilif]

DBM(M) is a good example of a serious and adult (cough) game that is also wrong on so many levels. It is however, very popular and gives those who like to be tested during a game a good experience.

This is key.  Look at KoW Historicals as this generation's DBM and you'll be just fine.

Don't compare it to more "simulative" rulesets, that's just silly.

[Sir Barnaby Hammond-Rye]

Well, I once made the mistake of giving a new teenage player a copy of DBM to read by way of introduction...   

Guess how that worked out! 

[Nevyen]

So having had doubts, I read the fantasy rules.  All in all aside from so unique naming of rules the actual combat and game mechanism is very very well thought out.

This could arguably be a great vehicle to transition people to historicals so my reservations are not as deep anymore.  I defiantly could see this being allot more appealing than other WAB replacements and getting some momentum. Maybe even generate a competition scene that draws people in.