Salute 2017 More Fantasy/Sci-fi than Historical?!

[Captain Blood]

I love a tiny world for my tiny toys to live in.

This is really the whole nub of this argument (which we have every year, without fail...  )
Either you care about the aesthetics, or you don't.
If you don't, and it's all about 'the game', then there's probably not much that's going to convince you otherwise.
But you should care, because miniatures wargaming is by definition a VISUAL hobby in three dimensions. Therefore the 'it doesn't matter what it looks like' argument is a dud.
Because if it didn't matter what it looked like, none of us would bother playing with representative model figures at all. We'd just use chits on a paper map...
Why have tiny toys but not bother with a tiny world for them to live in? Seems peculiar to me, but there you go. We all prize different aspects of the hobby, obviously.

[Plynkes]

Why have tiny toys but not bother with a tiny world for them to live in? Seems peculiar to me, but there you go.

Does seem like we're going around in circles here. But as I already stated, not all of us agree that aesthetics are more important than practicality, and some of us are willing to compromise one for the other. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend, surely? I don't think in the real world that it is the binary dichotomy of "masterpiece of art and engineering vs. flat board game with counters" that you are painting it as. There is a whole spectrum between those two things.

(And as already stated, if you are putting on a show for the public then that's a different matter, here I'm talking purely about the private world my own little men live in at home. )

[Ray Rivers]

I can understand your disappointment Richard, but to be quite honest purpose built boards seem like a real luxury for those with space.

Last time I went to Salute they had this huge "a bridge too far" board.   When I passed by it I thought... boy those people are crazy.  

But really, the fact that folks are buying gaming mats is a huge step from where I started off... a ping pong table set-up in a friends living room.

Though I have to admit, the thing that got me into wargaming in the first place was a really nice display table with beautiful AWI 28mm minis that I stumbled on at a local fair.

[Captain Blood]

I wasn't particularly disappointed Ray. There were plenty of good looking games there. And not so many 'club night' ones as in previous years 

Does seem like we're going around in circles here.

The curse of internet conversations 

Does seem like we're going around in circles here. But as I already stated, not all of us agree that aesthetics are more important than practicality, and some of us are willing to compromise one for the other. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend, surely?

No, that's not difficult to comprehend, Dylan. If someone doesn't have the space, money, time or wherewithal to build and store terrain boards, or views them as limiting, that's perfectly understandable.

What I don't understand is the people who clearly DO value the aesthetics of wargaming - because they go to the time and trouble of painting and basing their miniatures very nicely - but then claim they don't care about the aesthetics when it comes to terrain and scenery because the game's the most important thing. Which is a bit like saying I like to have lovely furniture in my living room, but I don't care about how the room is decorated as long as I've got somewhere to sit.

Anyway... ever decreasing circles... 

[Elk101]

Surely it's not time for 'that' argument, didn't we just have it?

Each to their own 

[Artemis Black]

If you're just some guys rocking up to a show like Salute and your game isn't participation (And I mean real participation, not 'everyone who starts at 10.10 is still playing at break down and they all just happen to know you') then your table had better look 'great', because otherwise there's literally no point in your game being there.

If however your game is full participation, anyone wandering by can get a game, multiple games played during the day etc, then your table only needs to look decent. If it also looks great then that's a bonus.

Participation games are already doing their job, they are getting people gaming, keeping people occupied, getting them excited about actually 'doing' things in the hobby not just wandering around a giant shop. Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.

I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.

If you want to talk about the difference between sci-fi/fant and historical, it's that, far more than quality of terrain. You hardly ever see non participation sci-fi fantasy games being put on.

[OSHIROmodels]

Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.

I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.

My table is also to help promote my wears and terrain building for commission work but I think (not sure though) that I'm an exception to the rule.

I like the 'vetting' idea though. As has been mentioned, and will no doubt be done so again, it is the biggest/premier show in the UK.

cheers

James

[Hammers]

I'll admit, Saturday was so busy, I didn't get to see any tables. Jimbo's is always a cracker - so sorry I missed it. My tables fall into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy category - so I'm only adding to the problem

I'll chuck my two-penneth in about table quality.

Before Crooked, I put on spangly games with terrain from my collection. There wasn't just one motivation: showcasing creative modellers (and I've been very lucky to work with some very talented folks); a nice day out with my mates; enjoying some games; and more than likely a bit of showing off.

With Crooked, it's pretty much the same. BUT it's also clearly a means to showcase 7TV to new people - you are not going to get a much better or bigger opportunity than Salute to be honest.

I'd hope it also gives something back to existing customers who get a chance to play on some nice tables - but I may be kidding myself. I've tried bigger, longer games - but we could only ever get a couple of games in during a day, and they often became a creche for dad's looking to run off and have a shop!

We moved to smaller 2x2 tables and quick play games, simply to give more folks a chance to get a game. My refs are running 6+ a day (10 in one case - but he was a bit mad).

I'm an unashamed terrain nut, so I have a modest collection. I love a tiny world for my tiny toys to live in. The arguments about cost are totally valid (believe me, my poor wife and ex-business partner vocalised them), but they seem to fall on deaf ears most years - and I just use it as an excuse to get another nice table.

Cudos to you. The boards you've financed are lovely.

[Von Trinkenessen]

Having  just hauled 15 x 2' baseboards together with a walled farm ,trees, hedges and approx 500+ 28mm landsknecht figures.
Its all about logistics,being in effect a one man band with two student sons and nephew as itinerant gamers / umpires its utter madness to put a game on @Salute.
This was the second game we had put on at Salute in the last 6 years, the first being 15mm Sci Fi.
It was a badly attended participation game , but we played 16+ turns , I spoke to approx 60 people ( nearly lost voice, much to my sons' amusement) .
Having been to the odd Salute on and off since the Kensington days I thought the games in all Wargaming sub genres were a mix of the brilliant over all, great terrain -poor figures,poor terrain - great figures, all about the game not the visuals and of course the advert games where the money is.
What I have noticed over the last few years is the arrival of the intimate game, probably from America very little manoeuvre and but action from the start.( It seems a cheap, quick and easy option)
Interesting conversation with my youngest son on the way home who said we should do a small size game with a mat and raised terrain.
His logic was that it would be a lot less stress and we could travel by train.

I wonder if some of the critics realise the cost of attending Salute with a game - petrol, parking ,tolls,food,accommodation.

[mcfonz]

My table is also to help promote my wears and terrain building for commission work but I think (not sure though) that I'm an exception to the rule.

I like the 'vetting' idea though. As has been mentioned, and will no doubt be done so again, it is the biggest/premier show in the UK.

cheers

James

Your table was fantastic. I can say that as someone that didn't realise it was yours until I got home and looked on here on Sunday. However Arty is right. As beautiful as it was, to me as a passer by, it would have made no difference if it was static or a game was going on on it. To be honest I don't even know that. I looked at the terrain and knew that it would be of interest to some of the folk I know elsewhere on the interwebs and picked up a couple of your product hand outs.

Now, I didn't have time, but as a punter, if I had been drawn into a participation game then I would have spent more time looking at the terrain, interacting with it due to moving troops in and out of it, and more likely to have made purchases on the day than leave it and possibly forget on the way home.

That is only my view though, and it certainly does not detract from the quality of your terrain and the table you built using it.

I am with Arty though. The table next to us this year felt like it drained the life around it. It looked fine, but if you were a punter, you wouldn't stop and look at it for long because the speed of progression meant you could return to it in a couple of hours and still not see any drastic progression. It wasn't a spectacle and it wasn't interactive in any way that appeared from the outside.

[Storm Wolf]

If you're just some guys rocking up to a show like Salute and your game isn't participation (And I mean real participation, not 'everyone who starts at 10.10 is still playing at break down and they all just happen to know you') then your table had better look 'great', because otherwise there's literally no point in your game being there.

If however your game is full participation, anyone wandering by can get a game, multiple games played during the day etc, then your table only needs to look decent. If it also looks great then that's a bonus.

Participation games are already doing their job, they are getting people gaming, keeping people occupied, getting them excited about actually 'doing' things in the hobby not just wandering around a giant shop. Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.

I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.

If you want to talk about the difference between sci-fi/fant and historical, it's that, far more than quality of terrain. You hardly ever see non participation sci-fi fantasy games being put on.

that sir is true gold and I concur completely well done,

[mcfonz]

I put together a montage of the photo's and some footage from Salute.

[Elk101]

That was good, there were some games that I don't think I've seen. What was the sci-fi corridor game and the one that looked like a Dutch town square?  Thanks for putting it up.

[mcfonz]

I'm not sure which game you mean by Dutch town square . . . if you give me a rough time on the vid to look I will check and see if I can recall where it was from.

The space ship corridor was one of our two participation games. It is fantastically built, it really is brilliant. Very detailed.

I apologise to the powers that be for linking to another forum, (please remove if not allowed): http://www.randomplatypus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2545

[Captain Blood]

I apologise to the powers that be for linking to another forum, (please remove if not allowed): http://www.randomplatypus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2545

It's allowed  

We're very inclusive and broad-minded here. Except where the quality of display games is concerned