Salute 2017 More Fantasy/Sci-fi than Historical?!

[Shipka]

whilst there were certsinly some excellent historical games, I have noticed a steady trend over recent years for the reviews to focus more on the fantasy/scfi , come on guys review the historical games and manufacturers

[6milPhil]

Interesting point, mine goes the other way, went to two manufacturers to look at their 6mm/10mm fantasy to find neither brings them to shows... one mentioned how their 15mm range might be handy too (I'm looking for bigger beasties in larger scales to be massive beasties in 6mm), but they don't bring that to shows either.

[nic-e]

Maybe that just reflects the trends and tastes of the community as it expands? the hobby is opening up alot lately with players having 3 or 4 core games rather than just the one, so historical gamers might also dip into fantasy and the bigger audience of 40k and fantasy players are also buying into smaller fantasy and sci fi systems .

[Malamute]

This is not in reply to your observation about reviews, but on a similar vein about how the hobby has moved on.

After a very brief look around in between minding Jimbibbly's OshiroModelTerrain Samurai table I remarked to my friends how the hobby has changed dramatically in recent years.

Gone are the amateur looking trade stands where figures were displayed lined up on shelves and the figures were then purchased individually or you picked the figures from DIY storage boxes.

Now figures and games are packaged, displayed and offered for sale at high impact modern looking boutique stalls often allowing the opportunity to play the game whilst you browse.. Most of which I have never heard of, there was a time when I would recognise every company and the people manning the stands.

The shift in focus seems to have moved towards more fantasy and Sci fi games, many of which suit the new high impact well packaged advertising approach where you buy the game complete with rules, figures, painting guides etc etc.

These games also seem to attract the younger market who are looking for a way out of 40k. My nephew is a prime example. He came along yesterday to his first ever Salute, mid 20s, only ever playing Warhammer. He spent a long time wandering around and came back with Prodos Games Alien Vs Predator. He expressed interest in the Empress Minaitures modern range but was worried if he bought into it, his friends wouldn't want to play.

And finally when the likes of Fronk Rank Miniatures stop attending shows, I am not surprised Younger games are buying into the historical market.

Just my thoughts... 

[Hu Rhu]

Just my thoughts... 

I totally agree about the bias towards non-historical gaming.  My 16 year old son remarked that fantasy/sci-fi and that ilk were fast replacing historical games. 

I have no problem with packaged games (or sci fi/fantasy for that matter) - just think Saga, Congo etc to name but a few but the emphasis is still on the individual to collect, paint and play his own factions and there is (almost) no push of a particular set of figures to play and enjoy the game with.

What I noticed about the packaged gaming on offer at Salute was the requirement to own a particular set of models to match the game.  Thus there can be no crossover between games/gamers.  Personally I think this is a bad thing as it encourages separation of gamers (especially at clubs) rather than inclusion.

Just my thoughts.   

[OSHIROmodels]

Bijou games are the in thing as the people who are starting the new companies/kickstarters/start ups are of the younger generation and have had more access to that style of game (rules, figures and scenery all included; don't mix and match  ) and see that they are popular. The trend for smaller scale skirmish games is in its height as well.

It's also a lot easier to 'invent' your own world, fantasy or sci-if and produce things for it rather than researching for it to be correct.

Is this a good thing, maybe as it brings the GW crowd into the larger world (Malamute's nephew being a good example).

Games like Saga are a good cross over between the small scale sci-if/fantasy game and full in historicals so let's see more of them.

cheers

James

[NurgleHH]

Honestly the SciFi and Fantasy-Crowd shows more quality than these historical gamers. You can't bring younger gamers with computer experience to a table with a green piece of cloth and some boards as mountains. They want to see a detailed world in 6-54mm. And all the SciFi- and Fantasy-companies reacted better than the historical scene. And all these SciFi/Fantasy-companies have better web-sides. There are still sides on the net with unpainted or awful painted miniatures in the shops.
@Malamut: Front Rank is one good example of a bad shop. Unpainted miniatures. The miniatures need a good painter. They are beautiful but bad supported.

[Captain Blood]

Agree with most of the above.

Many of the 'traditional' historical manufacturers are still there, although some come and go - Bicorne were back, Front Rank were absent (and Redoubt, or did I just miss them?) But they're rendered barely visible with their small stands amongst the big money, professional-looking fantasy/Sci-Fi businesses: of which there seem to be more and more every year. Along with more and more MDF merchants, and more and bigger 'mega-stands' from the likes of Warlord and Wayland Games. And this year, of course - mats. Mats everywhere. A sea of gaily printed neoprene and velour. A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.

Also agree we are witnessing the inexorable onward march of the 'packaged' game 'system' - rules, figures, dice, books, accessories, the T-shirt - gotta get 'em all... Is it the death knell of free thinking, creativity and invention in wargaming? Well, partly - for some. I guess it's very seductive to have everything ready assembled and packaged so all you have to do is hand over your money and play - although it's the antithesis of what wargaming is all about to me. But then against that, you also have the huge success of the recent swathe of new 'basic' wargames rules from Osprey, which are essentially old school wargames rules, being totally figures, terrain, accessory and dice agnostic. Then there are the halfway-houses like Studio Tomahawk with Saga and M&T, who very much package their rules, special dice, accessories etc - but also encourage use of any miniatures and terrain which look nice.

So there seem to be competing forces, as ever, within the hobby. Which frankly pretty much fit the pattern of the last 25 years: It's the GW 'let's professionalise this so we can charge more' approach (largely fantasy/sci-fi, but also aped by some 'historical' businesses like Battlefront and Warlord) - relentlessly promoting glossy, packaged 'entire' wargaming systems, to stitch your spend into their offer as much as possible. Versus the traditional approach which still largely frames the non sci-fi/fantasy half of the hobby, where people choose their own rules, figures, terrain and so on, and use their imaginations rather more. And ensuring their wargaming pounds (dollars and euros) are spread around many smaller businesses.

It's just a microcosm of the capitalist world, citizens - some big dogs trying to own the entire patch, and happy to eat the smaller ones... 

[Plynkes]

Oh no! He's off on one about mats and cloths again. Somebody get him a drink! 

Personally I don't like terrain boards all that much. Figures are always falling over on the uneven ground, the joins between the boards look as unsightly and jarring as any cloth terrain, and there is a certain in-built inflexibility to them that means you'll have to build another one soon, if you want to do a new scenario. They do mostly look nice, though, I'll give you that. But that ain't everything. Some folks just want to play, don't feel that every game has to be an award-winning masterpiece of art, and are prepared to compromise for that. Personally, I just hate the terrain-building aspect of the hobby, and will do almost anything to get out of doing it. If it looks like all my games are being played on a golf course then so be it. 

I was talking with my nephew the other day, and we did between us decide we actually prefer the "golf course" aesthetic. I guess we're just incurable damn heathens.


Mind you, I'm mucking about at home with my friends and family, not putting on display games at a public event. If you're doing that, and I'm paying to see it, I expect you to pull out all the stops! 

[Captain Blood]

Some folks just want to play, don't feel that every game has to be an award-winning masterpiece of art, and are prepared to compromise for that. Personally, I just hate the terrain-building aspect of the hobby, and will do almost anything to get out of doing it. If it looks like all my games are being played on a golf course then so be it. 

Goddam other people with their own points of view! Bugger! I keep forgetting about that 

[sukhe_bator]

For those of us of a certain age much the same can be said for the Model Railway hobby. When I was growing up, my father had to scratchbuild most of his colour light signals. Nowadays you can pretty much buy any specialist accessory down to what we termed 'rivet counting' accuracy. It was much the same parallel as ours - a hobby originally toy and fun orientated that became increasingly more specialised over the years, even down to niche periods and scales.
It's just the way of things I guess.
As for scenery and playing surfaces, despite my scenery building megalomaniacal tendencies I'm more of a cloths/mats person, simply for reasons of space. You could say I have epic battle tastes but skirmish games resources 

[WillieB]

Agree with most of the above.

Many of the 'traditional' historical manufacturers are still there, although some come and go - Bicorne were back, Front Rank were absent (and Redoubt, or did I just miss them?) But they're rendered barely visible with their small stands amongst the big money, professional-looking fantasy/Sci-Fi businesses: of which there seem to be more and more every year. Along with more and more MDF merchants, and more and bigger 'mega-stands' from the likes of Warlord and Wayland Games. And this year, of course - mats. Mats everywhere. A sea of gaily printed neoprene and velour. A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.

Also agree we are witnessing the inexorable onward march of the 'packaged' game 'system' - rules, figures, dice, books, accessories, the T-shirt - gotta get 'em all... Is it the death knell of free thinking, creativity and invention in wargaming? Well, partly - for some. I guess it's very seductive to have everything ready assembled and packaged so all you have to do is hand over your money and play - although it's the antithesis of what wargaming is all about to me. But then against that, you also have the huge success of the recent swathe of new 'basic' wargames rules from Osprey, which are essentially old school wargames rules, being totally figures, terrain, accessory and dice agnostic. Then there are the halfway-houses like Studio Tomahawk with Saga and M&T, who very much package their rules, special dice, accessories etc - but also encourage use of any miniatures and terrain which look nice.

So there seem to be competing forces, as ever, within the hobby. Which frankly pretty much fit the pattern of the last 25 years: It's the GW 'let's professionalise this so we can charge more' approach (largely fantasy/sci-fi, but also aped by some 'historical' businesses like Battlefront and Warlord) - relentlessly promoting glossy, packaged 'entire' wargaming systems, to stitch your spend into their offer as much as possible. Versus the traditional approach which still largely frames the non sci-fi/fantasy half of the hobby, where people choose their own rules, figures, terrain and so on, and use their imaginations rather more. And ensuring their wargaming pounds (dollars and euros) are spread around many smaller businesses.

It's just a microcosm of the capitalist world, citizens - some big dogs trying to own the entire patch, and happy to eat the smaller ones... 

Hi Richard,

Yes you missed Redoubt because I spoke to Trevor and Susan.  BTW Redoubt has revamped their old French Foreign Legion range and they looked superb!
Agree with your comments on the ubiquitous mats. Fine for a club game but IMHO not for an exhibition demo or participation game at one of the premier wargame shows and totally uninspiring. Thankfully there were also splendid terrain examples like the TooFatLardies, Oshiro and that wonderful Mosquito Coast game set in New Sweden.

[Hammers]

A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.

It looks, from the photos, like the big, lavish, exquisitely detailed boards are in decline. Many look quite bland.

[gamer Mac]

I was really shocked by the lack of nice looking boards. More mats and cloths than ever before and this is supposed to be the premier wargaming event in the country
Not very inspiring at all. I went all that way and only took about four photos and two of them were Boards built by LAF members Jim's and my brothers one for crooked dice, I have seen them both before but I was surprised to see an actual terrain board that I took pictures for evidence. Jim's castle was lovely and the inside detail was amazing not sure if he has posted pictures on here but he needs to, we came away thinking that we should do a table just to show all the rest up but I am not sure we can be bothered to transport it all the way down to London twice in a year

[Captain Blood]

Do it Colin 

Hi Richard,

Yes you missed Redoubt because I spoke to Trevor and Susan.  BTW Redoubt has revamped their old French Foreign Legion range and they looked superb!
Agree with your comments on the ubiquitous mats. Fine for a club game but IMHO not for an exhibition demo or participation game at one of the premier wargame shows and totally uninspiring. Thankfully there were also splendid terrain examples like the TooFatLardies, Oshiro and that wonderful Mosquito Coast game set in New Sweden.

Ah - thanks Willie.